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Thread: Apache Junction McDonald's No Guns Policy

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    Apache Junction McDonald's No Guns Policy

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    Upon discovering the sign posted at the McDonald's at 2383 w. Apache Trail, 85220, I sent a complaint to corporate concerning the sign/policy since I was under the impression that all franchised locations must follow the corporate policies of McDonald's and concerning firearms, they follow whatever local laws are in place. I received a callback yesterday from the manager of this location and she assured me that each individual location may do as they please concerning a weapons policy. She was unable to tell me why the owner posted the sign (which incorrectly cites 4-229) but I am awaiting a call from the owner himself so that I may discuss it with him.

    Anyway, if anyone is interested in sending them some feedback concerning the issue, their phone number is 480-983-1310. You can also send feedback online via: http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/conta..._feedback.html

    Thanks.

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    Who can see that sign? Transparent, hardly noticeable or impossible to notice.

    These sign laws all have one flaw: they assume that people have good enough vision to see them.

    And that sign? Not sufficient IMO.

    And they invite the public into their business...its a civil right issue. McDonalds has lots of $$$$ ... a good target to go after.

    They would likely settle rather than to spend $$$ ... get past a motion to dismiss and you're golden...

    I think that they are trying to trap people.

    If I ever ran into such a sign..I'd toss $400 into a suit. Its outrageous.

    I would be discussing a pre-suit settlement with the owner if he ever contacts you again. That's what businesses understand $$$$ from lawsuits. For a pre-suit settlement? I would ask for $10K. IANAL

    The sign is small, violates your civil rights, is based on a bad law, is transparent, is meant to deceive, and is designed to get you five years in prison maybe. What does a person have to do to me to start a lawsuit? Much less than all that.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-24-2014 at 03:25 AM.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Trickster - please check this article out written less than a year ago. Pay close attention to the quote from a spokesperson saying franchisees can make independent choices on their operations. This clearly does not comply with corporate policy, but they are within the law as a franchisee to post whatever they want...dumb as it is.

    http://gunssavelives.net/blog/mcdona...uns-in-stores/
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 04-25-2014 at 01:32 AM.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Apache Junction is a ways for me but - I maybe be able to help you with organizing a informational display on public property near this restaurant during their busy weekend business hours. Maybe people carrying signs saying "Are you safe at THIS McDonald's?" Then let the management there deal with questions from customers and media.

    If a business wants to endanger it's customers by stripping them of their right to legal self defense, the least we can do is point it out. Nothing will change for the better until responsible people start holding these careless business's accountable. Not doing business with them is a start, but not enough IMHO. We will never change stupid & dangerous policy by remaining silent. As we have seen with other minority groups (make no mistake - gun carriers are a minority in the general public) they gain much more traction with their concerns when they go public with them.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 04-25-2014 at 01:14 AM.
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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Trickster - please check this article out written less than a year ago. Pay close attention to the quote from a spokesperson saying franchisees can make independent choices on their operations. This clearly does not comply with corporate policy, but they are within the law as a franchisee to post whatever they want...dumb as it is.

    http://gunssavelives.net/blog/mcdona...uns-in-stores/
    Thanks for the information. McDonald's seems to have a conflicting policy whereby their franchisees are expected to abide by the conditions set forth via corporate yet are not held accountable if they don't?

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Apache Junction is a ways for me but - I maybe be able to help you with organizing a informational display on public property near this restaurant during their busy weekend business hours. Maybe people carrying signs saying "Are you safe at THIS McDonald's?" Then let the management there deal with questions from customers and media.

    If a business wants to endanger it's customers by stripping them of their right to legal self defense, the least we can do is point it out. Nothing will change for the better until responsible people start holding these careless business's accountable. Not doing business with them is a start, but not enough IMHO. We will never change stupid & dangerous policy by remaining silent. As we have seen with other minority groups (make no mistake - gun carriers are a minority in the general public) they gain much more traction with their concerns when they go public with them.
    At the moment, I am waiting to receive a response from corporate concerning the matter as thus far I have only been able to discuss it with the assistant manager of this particular restaurant. Unfortunately, she didn't seem to have a clue one way or another concerning franchisee vs. corporate stuff. She told me she would pass my information along to the owner and that he would call me back, but I doubt that will happen. However, I am optimistic that the corporate office will respond to me and clarify this whole mess.

    I have had some luck over the years getting a few businesses to reverse their stance on guns. You would probably be surprised as to how many liquor-selling restaurants thought they were required to post the signs at their front doors and didn't know they even had a say in the matter!

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Per McDonald's:

    "Thank you for sharing your comments and concerns.

    We recognize that there is a lot of emotion and passion surrounding the issue of gun control. While we respect the differing views of all our customers, McDonald’s company-owned restaurants follow local, state and federal laws. Decisions regarding operations for franchisee-owned restaurants are made by the independent franchisee. That said, as with all aspects of operating a McDonald’s restaurant, we expect our franchisees and their crew to follow local, state and federal laws.

    Thank you for your feedback. Your comments are important and will be shared with the appropriate people at McDonald’s.

    Again, thank you for taking time to share your concerns.

    Caroline
    McDonald's Customer Response Center"

    In other words, McDonald's would prefer its franchisees follow the law concerning firearms but doesn't actually require them to do so.

    The owner of that particular location in AJ has still not contacted me as the manager stated he would.

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    Let us know if anything happens Trickster, its something you gotta keep pressing in order to get through to them, stay safe bud.

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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Reading through this thread I am getting the impression that no gun signs have the force of law in Arizona, Is this the case?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Looks like the prohibit wheel guns only, looking at the sign.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Freedom View Post
    Reading through this thread I am getting the impression that no gun signs have the force of law in Arizona, Is this the case?
    Where the sign is depends on which law applies.

    In federal buildings, federal law applies.

    In state and local government buildings, the Weapons Misconduct statutes apply.

    Where booze is sold for consumption, liquor laws apply.

    For everywhere else, it is NOT a gun issue, but a TRESPASSING issue. If McDonalds posts a no gun sign and you enter with a gun you are trespassing on private property. When the cops are called and how you are treated depends on various factors. The unofficial process is usually they call the cops who then asks you to leave and if you don't you are arrested for trespassing.

    However if there is a big-ass no guns sign at eye level on the door as you entered and you're copping an attitude, or the cop is in a bad mood because he didn't get laid the night before, they can arrest you on the spot.

    Keep in mind that none if this occurs unless someone in charges knows you are carrying and doesn't want you there.

    For those of you that think you're safe discreetly carrying in a Mall, the moment you step into the food court, you move from trespassing to carrying where booze is sold and different laws apply. And open carrying where booze is sold is illegal.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 04-30-2014 at 01:21 PM.

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javelina View Post
    Let us know if anything happens Trickster, its something you gotta keep pressing in order to get through to them, stay safe bud.
    Will do.

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Where the sign is depends on which law applies.

    In federal buildings, federal law applies.

    In state and local government buildings, the Weapons Misconduct statutes apply.

    Where booze is sold for consumption, liquor laws apply.

    For everywhere else, it is NOT a gun issue, but a TRESPASSING issue. If McDonalds posts a no gun sign and you enter with a gun you are trespassing on private property. When the cops are called and how you are treated depends on various factors. The unofficial process is usually they call the cops who then asks you to leave and if you don't you are arrested for trespassing.

    However if there is a big-ass no guns sign at eye level on the door as you entered and you're copping an attitude, or the cop is in a bad mood because he didn't get laid the night before, they can arrest you on the spot.

    Keep in mind that none if this occurs unless someone in charges knows you are carrying and doesn't want you there.

    For those of you that think you're safe discreetly carrying in a Mall, the moment you step into the food court, you move from trespassing to carrying where booze is sold and different laws apply. And open carrying where booze is sold is illegal.

    Fred
    An excellent summary. Concerning malls, I am not aware of any here in the Phoenix-metro area that aren't posted. I also am not aware of any which sell booze in their food courts. I don't shop at malls because I have a problem with their gun policies as well as their prices. The only exception to this would be Sears since I like their Craftsman tools. On that note, who has authority concerning a weapons policy while shopping in Sears? Would it be the mall or Sears management?
    Last edited by The Trickster; 04-30-2014 at 02:33 PM.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    On that note, who has authority concerning a weapons policy while shopping in Sears? Would it be the mall or Sears management?
    And the answer is "Yes"

    If the Mall doesn't have a policy but Sears does, then it's Sears who makes the decision. If Sears doesn't but the Mall does then Sears as a tenant must abide by the Mall's policy.

    Fred

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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=azcdlfred;2056748]Where the sign is depends on which law applies.

    In federal buildings, federal law applies.

    In state and local government buildings, the Weapons Misconduct statutes apply.

    Where booze is sold for consumption, liquor laws apply.

    For everywhere else, it is NOT a gun issue, but a TRESPASSING issue. If McDonalds posts a no gun sign and you enter with a gun you are trespassing on private property. When the cops are called and how you are treated depends on various factors. The unofficial process is usually they call the cops who then asks you to leave and if you don't you are arrested for trespassing.

    However if there is a big-ass no guns sign at eye level on the door as you entered and you're copping an attitude, or the cop is in a bad mood because he didn't get laid the night before, they can arrest you on the spot.

    Keep in mind that none if this occurs unless someone in charges knows you are carrying and doesn't want you there.

    Thank you for the detailed information. I am amazed that Idaho is better in open carry than Arizona, no firearms signs at businesses have no force of law here. A business could have 5x10 foot sign at the door and it doesn't mean jack until someone ask you to leave. So far though I have not found one business that I have gone to that had a no firearms sign and I'm on the lookout for them. I know Costco has the no gun policy, but no signs, so I carry until someone ask me to leave. The only signs I have encountered are ones asking you to keep your firearm holstered while on the property and that seems reasonable.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Freedom View Post
    Reading through this thread I am getting the impression that no gun signs have the force of law in Arizona, Is this the case?
    Sadly, yes.
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    I am amazed that Idaho is better in open carry than Arizona
    There is really no such thing as firearms "freedom," just varying degrees of government control

    Many of Arizona's gun laws suck rocks. I moved here from Virginia and had to double-check that I didn't overshoot and land in California when it came to gun laws.

    In Virginia I could walk into any state and local government building wearing a firearm unmolested. I could sit in a bar wearing a gun and have a drink (please - let's not go into the weeds about guns and bars and what's right or wrong).

    All the restrictions I found spurred me to co-found AzCDL. Read more here.

    What mystifies me most is that so many in Arizona don't see how restrictive the gun laws are. Long term residents are in "boiling frog" denial mode and newcomers from the Commie states think it's cool to be "allowed" to carry a gun under very restrictive situations.

    /rant off

    Fred

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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    There is really no such thing as firearms "freedom," just varying degrees of government control

    Many of Arizona's gun laws suck rocks. I moved here from Virginia and had to double-check that I didn't overshoot and land in California when it came to gun laws.

    In Virginia I could walk into any state and local government building wearing a firearm unmolested. I could sit in a bar wearing a gun and have a drink (please - let's not go into the weeds about guns and bars and what's right or wrong).

    All the restrictions I found spurred me to co-found AzCDL. Read more here.

    What mystifies me most is that so many in Arizona don't see how restrictive the gun laws are. Long term residents are in "boiling frog" denial mode and newcomers from the Commie states think it's cool to be "allowed" to carry a gun under very restrictive situations.

    /rant off

    Fred

    I thank you for stepping up and fighting these evils masked as gun control in Arizona. I didn't know it was heading down that path in your state. I'm glad to be in Idaho now with its minimal restrictions, so I joined www.idahoopencarry.org to be part of an organization that is striving for more personal liberty and less interference from the state.

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    One of the most common excuses against either form of carry in establishments which sell alcohol for on-site consumption is the "guns and alcohol don't mix" argument, which makes sense at face value but not when you rid yourself of ignorance concerning the law and common sense. Most people seem to be under the false impression that so long as a bar/restaurant is not posted, a conservative male may enter while armed and drink until he becomes so inebriated and belligerent that we get to relive the "Wild West" and a "shootout at the OK Corral" will commence. In reality, you may not legally consume alcohol while carrying in these places - period. This completely nullifies the aforementioned piffle, but I dare ask: why can't I enjoy a beer or two while I'm carrying? I have kicked back more than my fair share while at home and according to any anti-gunner, I have a small arsenal in my house. Of course, anything in excess of two firearms, 500 rounds of ammunition, and at least one evil/scared high-capacity assault clip constitutes owning an arsenal, so........yeah.

    When Arizona was attempting to legalize carry in alcohol-serving establishments, the know-it-alls cried out that there would be blood in the streets. When it passed, that didn't happen.

    When Arizona was attempting to establish a CCW permit system, the know-it-alls cried out that there would be blood in the streets. When it passed, that didn't happen.

    When we have tried to legalize campus carry, public building carry, etc., the same piffle has been repeated. You do the math.
    Last edited by The Trickster; 05-01-2014 at 07:53 AM.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Freedom View Post
    I'm glad to be in Idaho now with its minimal restrictions
    Don't wear blinders. Idaho may be better in some ways, but if I recall, you still have to beg the government for permission to carry discreetly and there is no constitutional carry?

    This isn't a contest. There is no Best state when it comes to gun laws. Hell, even California has no restrictions on guns in bars for those few that can bribe their way into a permit.

    Regardless of the state we live in, we must all fight for the repeal of any law that restricts (you know, that "shall not be infringed" statement) firearms, who can possess them, and when, where or how they can be carried.

    If we allow for the "yes, but...." we will find it being applied to us.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 05-01-2014 at 12:06 PM.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    One of the most common excuses against either form of carry in establishments which sell alcohol for on-site consumption is the "guns and alcohol don't mix" argument
    When I lived in Virginia, I could openly wear my gun, walk into a bar, or any place that served liquor (food service was not a requirement) sit down and have a drink. Several states are that way. Virginia had a blood alcohol level restriction like for driving.

    Sadly too many gun owners have bought into passing laws telling others what they can or cannot do when carrying a firearm. That slippery slope started when gun owners accepted that certain guns should not be possessed by certain people and it was OK to beg the government for the "privilege" (that's what is says on the Arizona permit) to discreetly carry a gun.

    The group who fought the hardest against Restaurant Carry in Arizona was the "hospitality" (restaurants and bars) lobby. They preferred to be able to shrug their shoulders and say the STATE won't allow you to wear a gun in my business.

    Once you remove that excuse, they are faced with upsetting customers and must weigh which ones they care the least about losing as a source of income. Most choose to tell gun owners "we don't serve your kind here."

    Fred

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Since we got on the topic of consuming alcohol and carrying, is anyone aware of any laws concerning drinking a couple of beers while out fishing and carrying? I always carry when I'm fishing and I've never really given any thought to the subject.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Since we got on the topic of consuming alcohol and carrying, is anyone aware of any laws concerning drinking a couple of beers while out fishing and carrying? I always carry when I'm fishing and I've never really given any thought to the subject.
    I couldn't find anything in ARS Title 13 (Criminal Code), Article 31 (Weapons and Explosives), Section 02 (Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions) about drinking and carrying.

    Here's a link to ARS 13-3102:
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...13&DocType=ARS

    The only applicable statute I found was in Title 4 (Alcoholic Beverages), Article 3 (Prohibitions):

    "20. For a person to consume spirituous liquor in a public place, thoroughfare or gathering. The license of a licensee permitting a violation of this paragraph on the premises shall be subject to revocation. This paragraph does not apply to the sale of spirituous liquors on the premises of and by an on-sale retailer. This paragraph also does not apply to a person consuming beer from a broken package in a public recreation area or on private property with permission of the owner or lessor or on the walkways surrounding such private property or to a person consuming beer or wine from a broken package in a public recreation area as part of a special event or festival that is conducted under a license secured pursuant to section 4-203.02 or 4-203.03." - ARS 4-244

    I don't drink, so I never gave it any thought. Not good for me to remain ignorant of the laws though. Thanks for giving me a reason to search!
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 05-01-2014 at 09:20 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Since we got on the topic of consuming alcohol and carrying, is anyone aware of any laws concerning drinking a couple of beers while out fishing and carrying? I always carry when I'm fishing and I've never really given any thought to the subject.
    I'm pretty sure there are no laws about consuming alcohol while armed, except for the prohibition when in an establishment that serves booze.

    If you are going to get blotto on your couch at home and have to defend yourself with or without a gun, you can bet everything you own (you will anyway with attorney fees) that the issue will come up regardless of the legality.

    Fred

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    Thanks for giving me a reason to search!
    Happy to help.

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