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Thread: Know The Enemy of Liberty: the National Rifle Association

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    Know The Enemy of Liberty: the National Rifle Association

    With the release of the first episode of the Defending Our America series titled “Know Your Enemies and Know Yourself” the National Rifle Association (NRA) puts itself at the forefront of the shills for tyranny and empire.

    http://theinternationallibertarian.b...nal-rifle.html

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Be very careful out there. There are people that have guns and some of them have badges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Be very careful out there. There are people that have guns and some of them have badges.
    You know it!

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    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-01-2014 at 07:06 AM. Reason: Emphasis for the hard of reading.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    "I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I seldom carry one. ... I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses" --NRA President Karl T. Frederick, 1934 http://www.keepandbeararms.com/nra/nfa.asp

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    Thank goodness that it's an indisputable fact that the NRA is the concealed carry permit training industry lobby, rather than a gun "rights" organization.

    I'll take that assessment with me out the door if the moderators require.
    Last edited by marshaul; 05-01-2014 at 10:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Thank goodness that it's an indisputable fact that the NRA is the concealed carry permit training industry lobby, rather than a gun "rights" organization. ¶ I'll take that assessment with me out the door if the moderators require.
    Did you look at Darren Wolfe's blog, where he styles himself as the International Libertarian?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenlobo View Post
    "I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I seldom carry one. ... I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses" --NRA President Karl T. Frederick, 1934 http://www.keepandbeararms.com/nra/nfa.asp
    I'm glad you're still stuck 80 years in the past. I guess if words spoken when people rarely had indoor toilets for chrissakes offend you that much that you're blinded to the effective work the modern NRA, you know, in the year 2014 (maybe you're using the wrong calender, if your calender says "1934" it's a little out of date) then you're part of the problem in why new gun laws get passed.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Did you look at Darren Wolfe's blog, where he styles himself as the International Libertarian?
    I did. To whatever extent the NRA does support (or has supported) the War on Drugs, and perpetual warfare overseas, it is indeed an enemy of liberty.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    I love the misattribution too.....

    also the context of Fredericks testimony was altered in the earlier post... another segment of Fredericks testimony...

    Mr. KNUTSON. Is it your thought to submit a substitute measure for H.R. 9066 and at the same time not infringe unnecessarily on the rights of law-abiding citizens?

    Mr. FREDERICK. As I say, I have grave doubts as to the effectiveness of any such legislation.

    Mr. HILL. You concede there is a necessity for something. In politics we have an old saying that you cannot beat somebody with nobody. You cannot hope to defeat or materially alter the legislation unless you submit to the committee something that is better or that will better attain the object that this legislation seeks to accomplish.

    Mr. FREDERICK. I must differ with you in principle upon one point. I do not believe that Congress or the people back home want us to attempt miracles. In my opinion, based upon a rather extensive experience with this subject and study of it, very little of practical value can be accomplished by Federal legislation on the point.

    Mr. HILL. I take it then that it is your opinion that the criminal is going to get firearms regardless of any laws.

    Mr. FREDERICK. I think that is the opinion of any person who has knowledge of the subject. In most instances, the guns are stolen. They are not gotten through legitimate channels. Dillinger stole his guns. I have a half-dozen cases where guns have been used in prisons to effect a break; we have had that in New York, and all over the country. If you cannot keep guns out of the hands of criminals in jails, I do not see how you can keep them out of the hands of criminals walking about on the public highways.

    The CHAIRMAN. If that be true, then the laws of the various States of the Union dealing with the subject, are not accomplishing a good purpose because they do not put them all out of business?

    Mr. FREDERICK. I do not take that view of it at all. I believe in regulatory methods. I think that makes it desirable that any such regulations imposed should not impose undue hardships on the law-abiding citizens and that they should not obstruct him in the right of self-defense, but that they should be directed exclusively, so far as possible, to suppressing the criminal use, or punishing the criminal use of weapons.

    The CHAIRMAN. You spoke of your experience, which we realize is valuable and extensive, in dealing with this matter. This bill contemplates the suppression of crime and the protection of law-abiding citizens. Do you consider that your experience and your knowledge of this subject is superior to that of the Department of Justice? Do you consider that your experience puts you in a better position to say what is necessary to accomplish the suppression of crime than the Department of Justice?

    Mr. FREDERICK. I hesitate to set myself up in any comparative sense, because I recognize the prestige of the Department of Justice.

    The CHAIRMAN. You recognize also their experience in dealing with this subject?

    Mr. FREDERICK. Their experience, I think, has been comparatively recent. I think I may truthfully say this, and I think Mr. Keenan would agree with me, that I have given much more study to the problem of firearms regulations, extending over a longer period of time and going into far greater detail, than any man or all of the men in the Department of Justice.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Tread lightly gentlemen, if you please.

    While I agree that the NRA has done very little that might be commensurate with promoting and/or defending open carry, general broad sides against that organization won't be well received here.

    I've heard the argument that they want to keep their near perfect exclusive on CC instructors well lubricated with students bearing money. Yet all of the instructors I personally know include OC in their classes. Many NRA members locally OC regularly. It is at the top executive/management level where the redirection is likely most needed.

    Has the NRA gone far beyond their original mandate? Without doubt and like any large corporation they try to expand their footprint. Along the way they have done some good things and some that were at the opposite end of the spectrum.

    On a positive note: the NRA does keep the antis busy and contributes mightily to some severe heartburn amongst that dinner crowd
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Tread lightly gentlemen, if you please.

    While I agree that the NRA has done very little that might be commensurate with promoting and/or defending open carry, general broad sides against that organization won't be well received here.

    I've heard the argument that they want to keep their near perfect exclusive on CC instructors well lubricated with students bearing money. Yet all of the instructors I personally know include OC in their classes. Many NRA members locally OC regularly. It is at the top executive/management level where the redirection is likely most needed.

    Has the NRA gone far beyond their original mandate? Without doubt and like any large corporation they try to expand their footprint. Along the way they have done some good things and some that were at the opposite end of the spectrum.

    On a positive note: the NRA does keep the antis busy and contributes mightily to some severe heartburn amongst that dinner crowd
    I agree that individual NRA instructors may be pro-OC, and excellent instructors, and otherwise good people.

    But the legislative history is clear. The NRA has amply and consistently demonstrated a preference for P4P, even when it comes at harm to the constitutional/OC cause. This isn't a surprise, as permit training is big bucks, and the NRA has a monopoly on the industry in most states.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    [ ... ] the NRA has a monopoly on the industry in most states.
    By legislative fiat. When I challenged the fiat is when I learned the truth.

    Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and guns and the truth.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-01-2014 at 12:19 PM.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I don't like them because of their support of anti liberty legislation. Like the one a few years ago that they backed because they got an exemption in it.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    NRA.....hmmm.....if they are, as they tout themselves to be, pro-2A then they must be pro-2A. There is no distinction between OC and CC in the 2A. Apparently, to me anyway, they hold such a distinction as evident.

    Side note. The NRA ain't done jack to restore liberty in Missouri, in fact their best efforts here has been to remain silent in some instances regarding the eradication of the OC exemption contained within RSMo 21.750.3

    The NRA.....hmmm.....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    I can tell you that if the current leadership of the NRA spoke as Mr. Frederick spoke I'd be howling for his resignation. As it is, his name should be removed from the wall of honorable defenders of the Bill of Rights for the statements there.

    I am a life member, and what he represent(ed) is not what i joined for. Notably the organizations tone was quite different in 1994 when I joined. Much of our current problems can be traced to his selling out back then it seems.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Tread lightly gentlemen, if you please.

    While I agree that the NRA has done very little that might be commensurate with promoting and/or defending open carry, general broad sides against that organization won't be well received here.

    I've heard the argument that they want to keep their near perfect exclusive on CC instructors well lubricated with students bearing money. Yet all of the instructors I personally know include OC in their classes. Many NRA members locally OC regularly. It is at the top executive/management level where the redirection is likely most needed.

    Has the NRA gone far beyond their original mandate? Without doubt and like any large corporation they try to expand their footprint. Along the way they have done some good things and some that were at the opposite end of the spectrum.

    On a positive note: the NRA does keep the antis busy and contributes mightily to some severe heartburn amongst that dinner crowd
    Re-citing facts is not bashing.....is it?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Re-citing facts is not bashing.....is it?
    Most assuredly can be - especially when the volume exceeds the perceived level of complaint.

    In the case of the NRA, we might be better to pump the stagnant/foul water rather than chop a hole in the bottom of the boat to drain it.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    3) Chopping a hole and abandoning ship may be preferable to sailing around with pirates.
    Clearly you didn't play Assassins Creed: Black Flag.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Clearly you didn't play Assassins Creed: Black Flag.
    I have no idea what "Assasins Creek: Black Flag" even is
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    I have no idea what "Assasins Creek: Black Flag[sic]" even is
    http://assassinscreed.ubi.com/en-US/home/index.aspx
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    I have no idea what "Assasins Creek: Black Flag" even is
    It's a video game. With pirates.

    Pro-liberty, oddly heroic pirates, to be specific.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Most assuredly can be - especially when the volume exceeds the perceived level of complaint.

    In the case of the NRA, we might be better to pump the stagnant/foul water rather than chop a hole in the bottom of the boat to drain it.
    I have been duly notified. NRA is off limits.....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I have been duly notified. NRA is off limits.....
    Not so.

    Forum Rule 12.1.1 is not hard to follow, consider original intent.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not so.

    Forum Rule 12.1.1 is not hard to follow, consider original intent.

    • (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS:
    • 1. Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization.
    • 1. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.


    Not convinced, but this is on me.

    Rule 12 is unambiguous, tone and tenor seems to be the criteria used.....which injects ambiguity.

    The NRA is off limits.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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