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Thread: Open Carry Report Podcast Episode 10: You need to hear this.

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    Regular Member ProGun Podcast's Avatar
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    Open Carry Report Podcast Episode 10: You need to hear this.

    I have debated posting this one here because I know there is bad blood between regulars here and with Charles Cotton and TSRA. I think it's time to bury the hatchet and move on to passing open carry in some form so we can work towards our complete unlicensed carry across the board. To that end I spun off the Open Carry Report Podcast so that I could concentrate on that. On Monday April 28 I hosted a live streamed round table as part of the effort. Then on May 1 I released the recorded audio. The panel for the round table consisted of Alice Tripp, Charles Cotton, and C.J. Grisham. Some people will not like what they hear, some will agree, and some just won't care. But if we want to pass open carry in 2015 we need to listen to what legislators/candidates are saying. The show notes, web based audio player, and direct download are available at http://opencarryreport.com/010/ or if you just want the audio you can get it at: http://traffic.libsyn.com/opencarryreport/OCR-010.mp3

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    What a load of crap. You need a better disclaimer on that **** so people know what they're about to have to listen to.

    The guy says how dare you compare us to MDA and then turns around and immediately compares us to the Black Panthers! They're blind to their own hypocrisy.

    Honestly, ProGun Podcast, I think that very little new information was brought to the table here. It's really the same concerns that we've all already heard countless times. They talk about avoiding endless rhetoric, they probably need to check their own statements more carefully.

    Sorry to be so critical, but seriously... I feel like they're missing the underlying issues and falling into traps of playing games.

    Also, my opinion, just FYI, if OCT asks members to stop long gun open carry, OCT will dissolve. So if you're in favor of that idea -- stopping the long gun open carry -- you're basically just asking OCT to go away and cease to exist.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 05-03-2014 at 12:18 PM.
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    Regular Member ProGun Podcast's Avatar
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    I will try to explain how I feel that was viewed. The thing is that the open carry of long guns by the NBPP did hurt our preemption law. The difference though is obvious. The people open carrying now are doing it as a first amendment statement in an effort to remove second amendment limitations while the NBPP did it to intimidate people. The problem is that MDA and other groups are using the OC of long guns to push politicians into thinking that we are trying to intimidate them. To say that the TSRA and NRA are siding with groups like MDA when TSRA and NRA efforts include asking for OC as an interim hearing charge while MDA is pushing against OC would be incorrect at best. On top of that I don't think that Charles ever said "You are siding with the New Black Panther Party against us."

    What you should have come away from that audio with is that TSRA will be supporting OC in the next session, this means that they themselves will most likely have a bill. There are additional pieces of wisdom in there, such as when Alice Tripp suggested a strategy for testifying in support of a bill. As I said in the original post, there is bad blood between people here AND some of the guests but we need to work past that. There is too much valuable content in there to ignore and if we want to pass OC in Texas we need to work together. If you don't believe me then listen to Episode 4 with Eddie Zaicek of Oklahoma Open Carry Association. They passed OC there because they worked together and we need to decide which is more important our past issues or legal OC of modern handguns. I don't know about you folks, but I will choose recovering some part of my rights over an old problem everytime.

  4. #4
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProGun Podcast View Post
    I will try to explain how I feel that was viewed. The thing is that the open carry of long guns by the NBPP did hurt our preemption law. The difference though is obvious. The people open carrying now are doing it as a first amendment statement in an effort to remove second amendment limitations while the NBPP did it to intimidate people. The problem is that MDA and other groups are using the OC of long guns to push politicians into thinking that we are trying to intimidate them. To say that the TSRA and NRA are siding with groups like MDA when TSRA and NRA efforts include asking for OC as an interim hearing charge while MDA is pushing against OC would be incorrect at best. On top of that I don't think that Charles ever said "You are siding with the New Black Panther Party against us."

    What you should have come away from that audio with is that TSRA will be supporting OC in the next session, this means that they themselves will most likely have a bill. There are additional pieces of wisdom in there, such as when Alice Tripp suggested a strategy for testifying in support of a bill. As I said in the original post, there is bad blood between people here AND some of the guests but we need to work past that. There is too much valuable content in there to ignore and if we want to pass OC in Texas we need to work together. If you don't believe me then listen to Episode 4 with Eddie Zaicek of Oklahoma Open Carry Association. They passed OC there because they worked together and we need to decide which is more important our past issues or legal OC of modern handguns. I don't know about you folks, but I will choose recovering some part of my rights over an old problem everytime.
    I will not reject limited OC of modern handguns in favor of no OC of modern handguns. But I cannot ignore the fact that their main point was to call for an end to long gun OC. I believe that calling comes from a place of great ignorance, and instead of attempting to address that ignorance, which should certainly be possible, they want to only play kiss-up, without so much as an attempt to educate, which can be done politely. She did not answer CJ's questions about the feedback she was receiving from the capitol that she kept referring to. I do not have enough faith in them as lobbyists to give up something in which I see great effectiveness in favor of their word, when they show ignorance on the subject in various ways and have not been successful, whether they've tried or not, in the past in passing OC. They've failed in their lobby to me in this podcast, that doesn't allow me to put much faith that they'll lobby effectively for me at the capitol.

    I understand "playing the game" to an extent in order to have a real effect and get legislation passed, but to the degree that you submit to complete ignorance? No. I believe that if OCT decides to play the game on that level, they will do so without the majority of their member base.

    FYI, I'm not one of those members from here that has had bad blood. I've never even heard of these people before. I have no history with them. But I can certainly see how bad blood could have been created between them and members here.

    The amount of support that I have received while OCing a long gun has nearly brought me to tears. And they want to call for us to stop, without answering the simple question: why?
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 05-03-2014 at 01:27 PM.
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    Not @ anyone here, just speaking generally:

    I certainly have heard of Charles Cotton before, often, as I lived in Galveston, TX, for 5 years (2008-2013; in El Paso, TX, 1964-2008) and when I was looking for info on a TX CHL class in the area, his name often came up. And yes, he certainly is a CC supporter vs. an OC supporter. Plus, he's a "big name" in the Houston/Galveston/Sugarland area for all the assorted gun classes he teaches (in Friendswood, TX, IIRC). Plus, he has his own online gun forum.

    I never, however, got into anything with him personally re: his being "not a fan of" OC-ing -- partly because I never joined his clearly ONLY pro-CC forum -- so there never was any "bad blood" with me towards him. I just think it's sad that we gun-owner-carriers continue to have this adversarial CC vs. OC environment...which I am attempting to address at every OC Get-Together event we have up here in Colorado (now that I moved up here). One of my goals is to educate CC-ers as to why we OC-ers usually OC even though many of us DO have a CC permit (so besides "newbies" who don't carry yet but are looking into it, I also invite CC-ers to our OC events).

    Perhaps places like Houston/Sugar Land/Friendswood could start having "CC Get-Togethers" since OC events are impossible in TX (meaning OC-ing handguns, of course) and discuss these issues in-person with other gun owners. Get organized, in-person. Spend the time from now until TX gets OC meeting and talking with people in an effort to come together. Were I still living in TX, I certainly would start hosting "CC Get-Togethers" -- and later on, when TX DOES get OC, I'd do OC events.

    Whatever, due to there being no OC (of handguns) in TX, there have been/are no "OC events" people can meet up at to work on bridging the gap -- and reducing said adversarial relationship) between CC-ers and OC-ers. Consequently, I suggest people in TX start having CC Get-Togethers (preferably monthly, like we try to do in NM and CO), at least to meet in-person rather than get into "unpleasantries" in the assorted online forums.

    I think meeting in-person would be much more productive in-person -- and less acrimonious. ;-)

    At least I'd HOPE so!

    Good luck to you all still in TX...I look forward to you getting OC (handguns) soon.

    P.S. No, I would NOT want to see the OC-ing of longuns being "sacrificed" in order to get OC-ing of handguns. Leave OC-ing long guns alone and ADD OC-ing of handguns! It's TEXAS for gosh sakes! Reverse its embarrassing backwardness (compared to neighboring states which DO have and HAVE had OC of handguns), stop the "sissification" of TX, and stop trying to appease the anti-gun clueless pansy liberals in TX immediately!

    ...and speaking of pansy liberals, at least of the Colorado variety, we hope to kick our sorry CHIEF anti-gun liberal Democrat -- Governor Hickenlooper -- out of office come next election. And then, even repeal some anti-gun laws they passed here recently. Previous recalls of state legislators responsible for said anti-gun legislation have been successful (3 of them are gone), so we in "this here Great State of Colorado" hope to keep the ball rolling shortly! ;-)
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 05-03-2014 at 02:16 PM.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    In fact, a significant number of those OCing long guns have a CHL and CC. I do. When I am openly carrying my rifle, I am CCing my modern handgun. I believe the divide has evolved away from CC vs. OC, or rather, it never was actually between CC and OC. It was between two different mentalities, one mentality which would allow unfettered gun carry as is permitted by the principles of non-aggression and one mentality which is an application for status and "I'll be damned if someone can do what I'm doing without having to go through the process of becoming a member of status." It's freedom mentality vs. club mentality.

    Getting a status card and being able to legally do something that "the common folk" cannot makes you feel special. Unregulated carry, whether it is long guns, or BP revolvers, or modern handguns, is a slap in the face to those who feel special with their status card. It makes them feel less special, and they hate that. Not everyone with a status card feels this way, though, so it is not strictly CC vs. OC.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 05-03-2014 at 02:04 PM.
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    Regular Member ProGun Podcast's Avatar
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    The media is not doing us any favors at all, even when many of the reporters that go out to these events support us. The problem comes when their producers take a look at five interviews two are positive, one is neutral, one is rabidly against OC, and the last is mildly against OC. The producers then chooses to run the neutral, mildly against, and rabidly against interviews in that order to push the audience into thinking that OC is bad. The point is they never run the positive OC interviews from the public, the only pro-OC interview they show is the guy holding the gun followed by an increasingly negative narrative. We need to combat that when dealing with the legislature and public.

    The thing is that it is not Alice or Charles asking to stop or even curb long gun OC, it is the legislators/candidates who will be voting for handgun OC in the near future. California passed a bill to ban unloaded handgun OC, people protested by OCing long guns. California responded by passing a ban on long gun OC, now we celebrate a court case in California that slightly improves Concealed Carry assuming that it doesn't get overturned by an enbanc review. OCing of long guns has historically hurt us, the people who will be voting for or against handgun OC in the legislature are asking us to stop causing them headaches with long gun OC. I think that we need to adjust tactics so we don't hurt our chances. Well planned, carefully coordinated, and extremely publicized events like the Alamo event do far more good than anyone can imagine. The Alamo event is probably the single biggest reason the OC movement grew as quickly as it did and got the attention of politicians as well and could have been the deciding factor in pushing the NRA and TSRA into going forward with OC at the level they are.

    I don't think that Long Gun OC should stop entirely, but it should be done under very controlled conditions so that it minimizes negative pressure on OC efforts and maximizes positive pressure for passing OC.

    So we have educated the public, legislators/candidates, and media that the OC of long guns is legal in Texas. No one who lives in Texas and has any form media access can claim to think other wise. The public, legislators/candidates, and media are also aware for the most part that OC of handguns is illegal. Now we have to concentrate on getting their support to legalize handgun OC. Holding marches, rallies, ect. while OCing a rifle does not communicate to them that Handgun OC is a good thing. Until we find a way to communicate to them that handgun OC is a good thing they will continue to think its ok or good for it to be illegal, especially with the media reporting things the way they are.
    Last edited by ProGun Podcast; 05-03-2014 at 02:09 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I disagree completely.

    First of all, you state that OC of long guns has historically hurt us and immediately follow that statement saying that OC of long guns is probably responsible for jump-starting the OC movement in Texas.

    Secondly, no, the educational "phase" is not "complete." Every time we OC long guns we educate more people. Until we go on an OC walk an everyone that we run into is already aware of the issue, the education goal cannot be considered "accomplished"

    The question is still unanswered why certain politicians want OC of long guns stopped. The only details we've heard on this issue is that the mayor in Arlington has taken issue with the activities of OCT. For all we know, this is the single source of contention. For all we know, it is the city of Arlington pressuring certain politicians in Austin to try and use their political power to stop the OC walks just because they personally do not like them.

    So no, I will not blindly follow the whims of these lobbyists in order to avoid upsetting our biggest opponents.

    "Holding marches, rallies, ect. while OCing a rifle does not communicate to them that Handgun OC is a good thing."

    I beg to differ, and I bet I've been on more OC walks than you have.

    "Until we find a way to communicate to them that handgun OC is a good thing they will continue to think its ok or good for it to be illegal, especially with the media reporting things the way they are."
    It's amazing that you're on opencarry.org stating that we need to find a way to communicate to the public this message. That is the central focus of this entire website, is it not? And what is the primary suggested method here? Is it not OCing?

    Also, I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that the media is untrusted by the vast majority of the population. I don't care very much whether they do slam pieces on OC.

    You cannot with any reasonableness claim that OC of long guns has been detrimental to public support for the OC movement. What Charles was saying is that public support is irrelevant, and that his lobbying will be the only means of getting any pro-2a legislation passed here in Texas.

    If I should not carry my rifle in public, then what is point, sir, of having it legalized? Take your Cali example. What good did the law permitting long gun OC in Cali do if nobody actually OCed long guns? No, you see, you are missing the underlying issue, just as Alice and Charles are.

    The goal is to be able to OC freely. We've accomplished being able to OC freely in the majority of Texas. Now we're being asked to voluntarily stop. Go to opencarry.org and read the slogan at the top.

    These people we are talking about here just TOOK CREDIT FOR KILLING AN OC BILL. I don't know the details of that bill, but damn. Hell no I'm not putting my trust in them to have support for OC in their hearts.

    If OCT never existed, would either of these lobbyists be pushing for OC? I doubt it. Their interest in OC is questionable.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 05-03-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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    First Jumping off of bridges has historically killed people, but sometimes they do survive. Just because it is the common historical result does not mean it is always the case.

    Second I agree that the educational phase is not complete, but to educate you must progress. Repeatedly working on teaching the alphabet doesn't teach someone how to spell, or to read, or to write. Remember that perfection is the enemy of good enough.

    Third,The question is answered. The politicians are recieving pressure from callers that they understand to be voters that they are uncomfortable or bothered by long gun OC. Essentially they are saying "Please stop the long gun OC it is helping my opponents with the media, scared soccer moms, and 911 calls." MDA and their allies are making headway here. The city of Arlington's wants and wishes are not the concern of a candidate from House District 82, 50, or 7. I somehow doubt a city council has that kind of pull.

    Fourth, Don't blindly follow anybody.

    Fifth, OCing a rifle does not truly communicate that OCing a handgun is a good thing. It's kind of like giving someone an Orange and saying those apples taste really good. You probably have been on more Marches than I have, but we are looking at two different pictures. You are looking at individual people who receive the message randomly. I am looking at the entire state where people are getting a less personalized message, most politicians we want to win over are somewhere between us.

    Sixth, I am on OCDO discussing it because the people here can do it VERY well if they put their mind to it. The problem is you will not educate people in mass about handgun OC by OCing rifles. The admin here at OCDO only allows the discussion of rifles in this forum because handgun OC is not legal in Texas, this would cause me to assume that they don't like rifle OC unless it's the only option if I were to use the logic presented to me.

    Seventh, If you think that the media is untrusted so what they do doesn't matter then why does anyone in the OC movement give interviews? It's because someone one thinks that getting the message out does work.

    Eighth, I am not saying that it has been entirely detrimental, but it is not helping us as much as other methods can. Public support is relevent just as lobbying is relevent because they both influence votes by politicians. In order to pass legislation you have to have both. Right now the politicians are being given the idea that public support is against us because they are being spoon fed anti-OC sentiments, man on the street interviews, ect by the media and callers they pervceive as voters.

    Nineth, If your goal is being able to OC freely, and you have accomplished that in the majority of Texas then I assume you are not concerned about Legal handgun OC. In regards to the slogan let me counter it with "The hand shoved into the mouth of a bear is a hand that is easily lost." I have open carried a long gun long before it was a trend to do so. I didn't carry it to make a statement, or in a group (unless hunting), I carried it because it was practical for my use/transport of it. I did take extra measures to seem non-threatening for when I walked past the business that still has a decades old bullet hole in its sign with a long story behind it. The only time I had a LE encounter while OCing a long gun was when an officer was interested in buying a similar rifle and asked me what I though about it. California lost long gun OC due to bad tactics, just like they lost unloaded handgun OC due to bad tactics, just like they lost loaded handgun OC due to bad tactics by the Black Panther Party. We lost some long gun OC rights due to bad tactics due to the new black panther party. Do you see a pattern here? I do. I am not saying we need to completely stop long gun OC, we need to do it in a manner that doesn't hurt our future plans.

    Tenth, When did they take credit for killing an OC bill? Show me an article, give me a time in my audio, or present me some proof. They talked about a bill being killed, but it was not their actions that did it. They talked about not pushing a bill because it wasn't theirs, but that was not killing it. They did mention testifying in support of a bill, maybe that killed it...

    Eleventh, who said anything about OCT not existing? Even Charles said that OCTs efforts made OC an issue for the next session. They see an interest in OC, the TSRA membership is showing an interest in OC, I say lets run with it.

    Finally, We should be able to pass OC this session, if we adjust tactics then it may become easier. Once we legalize Handgun OC no matter what form we get it becomes easier to go back and improve on it. You have to have a home in order to do home improvement, you can buy all the tools, supplies, and fixtures you want but you can't do much with them until you have a home. I am afraid if we don't pass it in 2015 it may not be possible to pass it in 2017 or 2019. I say this because Texas is growing the population by absorbing people from states that do not like guns and they will bring their voting habbits with them.

  10. #10
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    First point - my point is simply that the history behind OC of long guns doesn't matter if the current experience is positive. It is.

    Second - sure, when someone learns the alphabet it's time for them to move on to spelling, reading, writing, etc. There are still many people who need to learn the alphabet. This is clear during walks.

    Third - This is ironic. They want a lawful activity to stop because they're receiving negative feedback from the public and at the same time complaining about being overwhelmed with support, saying that we need to not flood them with calls in support of OC or have too many supportive testimonies. Like I said in my first post, they are blind to their own hypocrisy.

    Fifth, seems like a reason to have more personalized message sharing, not less.

    Sixth, it is the only option, so even if what you're saying is true, they like it in Texas because it's the only option. That's great.

    Seventh, media brings issues to light whether the perspective being presented by the media can be trusted or not. If any person is like me, they'll see something in the media, and if it interests them in the least they will look into it in order to try and filter out the bias. Even if they don't take the time to do a quick 60 second google search and find a few more facts, they'll at least be skeptical of the statements made on TV. I guess you could say the same about positive news coverage. But it doesn't matter that much because the fact of the matter is that the facts are on our side.

    Eighth, I don't see the TSRA or the NRA engaged in any methods which are more effective. If they find one and engage in it, I'll be glad to join them.

    Ninth, you know what I meant. We sought to be able to OC long guns freely and we accomplished that to a large degree. We're still working on it more. We are also seeking to be able to OC handguns freely. Law change is required for this, law change was not required for long gun OC. You do not assume that I'm not concerned with legal handgun OC, you know better.

    CALIFORNIA DID NOT LOSE RIGHTS DUE TO BAD TACTICS. California passed bad laws due to bad politicians and a lack of accountability. Plain and simple.

    Please, tell me in what manner we may carry our long guns such that it doesn't, in your personal opinion which may or may not be substantiated by fact or experience, hurt our future plans.

    Tenth, 10:35 "we fought and killed it" "cool"
    You are welcome. I was about to tell you there's no way I'm listening to nearly 2 hours of your audio again just to tell you what's in it.

    Eleventh, I explained what I meant about OCT ceasing to exist and you do not address it.

    What OCT does works damn well. There is no reason to stop.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 05-03-2014 at 05:10 PM.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member ProGun Podcast's Avatar
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    First, the current experience has been positive, now it's becoming an issue so lets adapt.

    Second, You don't hold the whole class back because someone can't pass the basics. The class moves on and leaves them behind with the hope that they catch up. If we wait until every last person in the state of Texas understands the need for handgun OC before moving the class forward then your great grand children will be wanting to know why they don't have OC.

    Third, I don't think they have been overwhelmed with support for long gun OC.

    Fifth, Displays of affection are often very personal, Public ones tend to be off putting. We need to moderate ourselves so we don't put people off while personally communicating our messages.

    Sixth, Remember this one for the end.

    Seventh, If that was the case the media would adjust it's own methods so that their viewers wouldn't go get distracted by a google search and miss the commercials. The facts may be on our side, but the message people are getting isn't.

    Eighth, The NRA and TSRA have been effective in getting legislation passed and bad legislation stopped. Seems very effective to me.

    Nineth, I wished to point out your previous statement was incomplete and therefor incorrect. A child holding it's breath and stomping its feet because it got a spanking will most likely get another, in part due to bad tactics on their part. Proper tactics in California would have been to hold politicians accountable, kinda like what happened with the recall elections in Colorado. Observation shows that the Alamo rally worked well, take what did work there and don't annoy people with it. Just remember that there can be too much of a good thing.

    Tenth, Think back to your sixth response. A licensed OC bill would have not passed the legislature back then. An amendment was offered as a poison pill that would have converted the Licensed Concealed Carry bill into a licensed OC bill which would not have passed. The TSRA did kill that amendment, it was not a bill and it would have derailed the effort to get some form of legal carry. This shows that TSRA/NRA will kill poison pill amendments and will work to get the job done. So please hold it against them for getting some form of legal handgun carry in Texas. They have legalized handgun carry in Texas in the past, They have improved upon it since then, so I think they know how to improve it again. So lets say a bill comes forward that would legalize OC w/o a permit but would require a may issue ID card to actually own a firearm, State wide registration of all firearms, an assault weapons ban, and for good measure it kills long gun OC. Would you hold it against them for killing that bill? What about a bill that would give licensed handgun OC in exchange for killing Long Gun OC? Would you want them to kill that one or help pass it?

    Eleventh, We don't know if they would push for OC without OCT's efforts. I do know that I am grateful that we won't have to find out. But you were the first to ponder OCT ceasing to exist in this thread. I never once called for an end to OCT. With that said I have had a longer more personal talk with CJ in the past than I have with Charles, but I have had the same number of interviews and phone conversations with both. In fact every spoken word between Charles and myself is available somewhere for people to listen to, I can't say the same for C.J. because we had a personal talk/conversation before and after a previous interview.

  12. #12
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I think you're wrong. It's much less of an issue now that it ever has been. And every time we OC, it's even less of an issue. That's the point. And that's why we will continue doing it indefinitely.

    The bottom line is that I've seen 0 good reasons to stop OCing long guns. The people in that podcast provided no good reasons to stop OCing long guns, and you've provided no good reasons here. Generic statements like "we need moderation" are meaningless. We exercise moderation on every OC walk.

    "I don't think they have been overwhelmed with support for long gun OC." They complained about this specifically in your podcast. No, I will not listen to it again to find a time marker for this as well.

    I think we've beaten this horse enough. I wish you well.
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