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Thread: OC/CC on reservations

  1. #1
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    OC/CC on reservations

    I was driving through Mt. Pleasant the other day when I saw a sign that said something to the affect that I had entered an Indian Reservation. I OC on a daily basis and was wondering if driving through while armed was legal. Before people get crazy on me, I understand that, while in a motor vehicle, it is considered concealed. Any information on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
    -Thomas Jefferson

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    Here's an extended current thread on gun laws on Aboriginals' Reservations.

    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Am I to understand that it is illegal without Tribal consent first?
    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
    -Thomas Jefferson

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    There is an OCDO Rule mandating citations to law when they are mentioned. No one has complied with that rule, no one knows what are the laws of the various tribes on their various reservations.
    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    You may beat their rap - the charges - but you will not beat their ride, traditionally tied backwards astraddle a wildhorse for a wild ride across the prairie.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-08-2014 at 10:33 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Tribal laws do not apply to non-Indians, period!

    Decided way back in 1978. I'm not really sure why there is still confusion on this topic.

    Indian tribal courts do not have inherent criminal jurisdiction to try and to punish non-Indians, and hence may not assume such jurisdiction unless specifically authorized to do so by Congress.

    MARK DAVID OLIPHANT AND DANIEL B. BELGARDE, PETITIONERS, V. THE SUQUAMISH INDIAN TRIBE ET AL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Tribal laws do not apply to non-Indians, period! Decided way back in 1978. I'm not really sure why there is still confusion on this topic. MARK DAVID OLIPHANT AND DANIEL B. BELGARDE, PETITIONERS, V. THE SUQUAMISH INDIAN TRIBE ET AL.
    While not conclusive on the issue before us, the commonly shared presumption of Congress, the Executive Branch, and lower federal courts that tribal courts do not have the power to try non-Indians carries considerable weight." (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/435/191 MARK DAVID OLIPHANT AND DANIEL B. BELGARDE, PETITIONERS, V. THE SUQUAMISH INDIAN TRIBE ET AL )
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    While not conclusive on the issue before us, the commonly shared presumption of Congress, the Executive Branch, and lower federal courts that tribal courts do not have the power to try non-Indians carries considerable weight." (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/435/191 MARK DAVID OLIPHANT AND DANIEL B. BELGARDE, PETITIONERS, V. THE SUQUAMISH INDIAN TRIBE ET AL )
    You're reading too much into the dicta. You need to read the conclusion:
    They have little relevance to the principles which lead us to conclude that Indian tribes do not have inherent jurisdiction to try and to punish non-Indians.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 05-08-2014 at 11:02 AM.

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    At the beginning of the Opinion, my citation, the conclusion is admitted as standing on shaky grounds.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    After conducting my own research, this is what I found.


    The following is taken from http://www.sagchip.org/tribalcourt/o...13%20final.pdf.

    "1.2104 LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL TO WHOM ISSUED. A license to carry a pistol within
    the Tribal Jurisdiction may be issued to the following persons providing that they are not
    prohibited from possessing a pistol under the provisions of Section 1.2103 of this Code,
    and if it appears that the applicant therefore has proper purpose for the carrying of such
    pistol and that the applicant is a proper person to be so licensed;

    (a) Any person who is eighteen (18) years of age or older, having a bona fide
    residence or place of business within the jurisdiction of The Saginaw
    Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan.

    (b) Any person having a bona fide residence or place of business within the
    United States of America and a license to carry a pistol issued by a
    competent authority of any State or subdivision of the United States of
    America."

    Thank you for your advice and direction.

    Edited to add: Also found this from same site.

    1.2106 CARRYING PISTOLS PROHIBITED EXCEPTIONS. Except as otherwise provided in
    this subsection, no person without a license shall carry a pistol, either openly or
    concealed, in any vehicle or on or about his person, within the Tribe's Jurisdiction, save
    on his own land, in his own abode or fixed place of business or on a target range. This
    prohibition, however, shall not apply to the following persons:
    (a) Marshals, Sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their regularly employed
    deputies, policeman, or other law enforcement officers of any state or
    political division thereof;
    (b) Members of the armed forces of the United States when on duty or when
    going to or from duty;
    (c) The members of the national guard, organized reserves, or state guard
    organizations when on duty or going to or from duty.
    (d) Officers of employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a
    pistol;
    (e) Any person engaged in manufacturing, repairing or dealing in pistols or
    the agent or representative of such person possessing, using or carrying a
    pistol in the usual or ordinary course of such business;
    (f) Any common carrier; or
    (g) Any person permitted by law to possess a pistol while carrying such pistol
    unloaded in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or
    place of business;
    (h) Any person lawfully engaged in hunting or fishing and by the terms and
    conditions of Tribal Fish and Game Regulations is authorized to use a
    pistol therefore.

    1.2317 INCORPORATION OF STATE LAWS BY REFERENCE; PROSPECTIVE
    INCORPORATION OF AMENDMENTS.
    (a) Whenever any section of this chapter shall indicate that the laws of the
    State of Michigan have been incorporated by reference, such laws or
    portions thereof as are specified shall be of equal force and effect within
    Page 68 of 77 May 29, 2013the jurisdiction of The Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan as if
    they had been promulgated by the Tribal Council of The Saginaw
    Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan and set forth herein in the entirety;
    provided, however, that the penalties for violation thereof shall not be
    incorporated herein but shall be as provided in this Code; and provided
    further that in the event of any conflict or inconsistency between such
    incorporated State Laws and this Code, the provisions of this Code shall
    govern.
    (b) Wherever such State Laws are incorporated herein by reference,
    amendments thereto shall also be deemed to be incorporated upon their
    effective date in the State of Michigan without further action by Tribal
    Council, provided, however, that in the event of any conflict between such
    amendments and the existing provisions of this Code (excepting the State
    Law being amended), the provisions of this Code shall govern.
    Last edited by TaurusRanger; 05-08-2014 at 01:50 PM. Reason: more info
    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
    -Thomas Jefferson

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    Outstanding!

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurusRanger View Post
    After conducting my own research, this is what I found.


    The following is taken from http://www.sagchip.org/tribalcourt/o...13%20final.pdf.

    "1.2104 LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL TO WHOM ISSUED. A license to carry a pistol within
    the Tribal Jurisdiction may be issued to the following persons providing that they are not
    prohibited from possessing a pistol under the provisions of Section 1.2103 of this Code,
    and if it appears that the applicant therefore has proper purpose for the carrying of such
    pistol and that the applicant is a proper person to be so licensed;

    (a) Any person who is eighteen (18) years of age or older, having a bona fide
    residence or place of business within the jurisdiction of The Saginaw
    Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan.

    (b) Any person having a bona fide residence or place of business within the
    United States of America and a license to carry a pistol issued by a
    competent authority of any State or subdivision of the United States of
    America."

    Thank you for your advice and direction.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  11. #11
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    Thank you. Mind you it was your reference that gave me the idea to look for reservation law.
    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
    -Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    At the beginning of the Opinion, my citation, the conclusion is admitted as standing on shaky grounds.
    You are mistaken. It is well settled law. For over 35 years!

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    I would also like to point out that a pistol in a vehicle is not automatically concealed simply because the pistol is in the vehicle. A pistol on the dash or the front seat is likely plainly visable.

    The law requires you have a cpl in order to transport a loaded pistol in a vehicle whether concealed or otherwise.

    750.227

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    Or otherwise = not concealed
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaurusRanger View Post
    Before people get crazy on me, I understand that, while in a motor vehicle, it is considered concealed.
    I hate that people keep saying this. It's not "considered concealed." It is illegal to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle (period) unless you have an exemption. A concealed pistol license is one of those exemptions.

    EDIT: And I see now that someone else has already mentioned this. Yay.
    Last edited by jeffrey-r; 05-12-2014 at 10:15 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    I would also like to point out that a pistol in a vehicle is not automatically concealed simply because the pistol is in the vehicle. A pistol on the dash or the front seat is likely plainly visable.

    The law requires you have a cpl in order to transport a loaded pistol in a vehicle whether concealed or otherwise.

    750.227


    Or otherwise = not concealed
    Completely wrong-

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    Also ref MSP Legal Update 86 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Completely wrong-

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    Also ref MSP Legal Update 86 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    Actually, completely right. It's even in your quote.

    YES, a CPL is required to carry in a vehicle, concealed or otherwise.

    That means that you can carry openly in a vehicle - but you need a CPL to do so.

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    Actually, completely right. It's even in your quote.

    YES, a CPL is required to carry in a vehicle, concealed or otherwise.

    That means that you can carry openly in a vehicle - but you need a CPL to do so.
    Semantics.....

    The poster I quoted suggested that having the firearm in plain view (e.g on the dashboard) is 'not concealed'. Legally, any firearm in a vehicle is concealed, whether you can see it from outside the vehicle or not. Ergo, a CPL is required, as the firearm is, indeed, concealed.

    Someone with less experience could assume from his, and your,comments, that it is possible to 'open carry' in a vehicle. Under Michigan law, it is impossible to open carry in a vehicle.

    If it was possible to 'open carry' in (or on) a vehicle, no CPL would be required.
    Last edited by Shadow Bear; 05-17-2014 at 10:26 PM.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Semantics.....

    The poster I quoted suggested that having the firearm in plain view (e.g on the dashboard) is 'not concealed'. Legally, any firearm in a vehicle is concealed, whether you can see it from outside the vehicle or not. Ergo, a CPL is required, as the firearm is, indeed, concealed.

    Someone with less experience could assume from his, and your,comments, that it is possible to 'open carry' in a vehicle. Under Michigan law, it is impossible to open carry in a vehicle.

    If it was possible to 'open carry' in (or on) a vehicle, no CPL would be required.
    No, not at all. The legislature is very clear in this regard. If an individual is non-750.231a compliant [the exceptions to 750.227(2)], the possession a loaded pistol in a vehicle, a CPL is required to do so. Some members here, and elsewhere, are/have been, seeking "loop-holes" which don't exist. Personally, I don't think a permit/license should be required to carry in a vehicle as I see it as an extension of the persons home. But it is what it is, at least for now.

    I agree with the red, but ignorance of the law is on that person and not those who have an understanding of them (law).

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Semantics.....
    What you call semantics, I call legislative intent.

    If I carry openly on a motorcycle on a drop-leg holster it's not concealed, but it's still in violation of 750.227(2) because It's "in a vehicle" (we have case law on that), and it's "Concealed OR OTHERWISE" (other than concealed = open).

    You start calling THAT concealed carry, and good luck calling IWB tuck carry open in this state like other states have. You're better off calling it what it is.

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