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OC/CC on reservations

TaurusRanger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2012
Messages
20
Location
Coleman, Michigan
I was driving through Mt. Pleasant the other day when I saw a sign that said something to the affect that I had entered an Indian Reservation. I OC on a daily basis and was wondering if driving through while armed was legal. Before people get crazy on me, I understand that, while in a motor vehicle, it is considered concealed. Any information on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
While not conclusive on the issue before us, the commonly shared presumption of Congress, the Executive Branch, and lower federal courts that tribal courts do not have the power to try non-Indians carries considerable weight." (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/435/191 MARK DAVID OLIPHANT AND DANIEL B. BELGARDE, PETITIONERS, V. THE SUQUAMISH INDIAN TRIBE ET AL )

You're reading too much into the dicta. You need to read the conclusion:
They have little relevance to the principles which lead us to conclude that Indian tribes do not have inherent jurisdiction to try and to punish non-Indians.
 
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TaurusRanger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2012
Messages
20
Location
Coleman, Michigan
After conducting my own research, this is what I found.


The following is taken from http://www.sagchip.org/tribalcourt/ordinance/Title I Criminal 052913 final.pdf.

"1.2104 LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL TO WHOM ISSUED. A license to carry a pistol within
the Tribal Jurisdiction may be issued to the following persons providing that they are not
prohibited from possessing a pistol under the provisions of Section 1.2103 of this Code,
and if it appears that the applicant therefore has proper purpose for the carrying of such
pistol and that the applicant is a proper person to be so licensed;

(a) Any person who is eighteen (18) years of age or older, having a bona fide
residence or place of business within the jurisdiction of The Saginaw
Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan.

(b) Any person having a bona fide residence or place of business within the
United States of America and a license to carry a pistol issued by a
competent authority of any State or subdivision of the United States of
America."

Thank you for your advice and direction.

Edited to add: Also found this from same site.

1.2106 CARRYING PISTOLS PROHIBITED EXCEPTIONS. Except as otherwise provided in
this subsection, no person without a license shall carry a pistol, either openly or
concealed, in any vehicle or on or about his person, within the Tribe's Jurisdiction, save
on his own land, in his own abode or fixed place of business or on a target range. This
prohibition, however, shall not apply to the following persons:
(a) Marshals, Sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their regularly employed
deputies, policeman, or other law enforcement officers of any state or
political division thereof;
(b) Members of the armed forces of the United States when on duty or when
going to or from duty;
(c) The members of the national guard, organized reserves, or state guard
organizations when on duty or going to or from duty.
(d) Officers of employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a
pistol;
(e) Any person engaged in manufacturing, repairing or dealing in pistols or
the agent or representative of such person possessing, using or carrying a
pistol in the usual or ordinary course of such business;
(f) Any common carrier; or
(g) Any person permitted by law to possess a pistol while carrying such pistol
unloaded in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or
place of business;
(h) Any person lawfully engaged in hunting or fishing and by the terms and
conditions of Tribal Fish and Game Regulations is authorized to use a
pistol therefore.

1.2317 INCORPORATION OF STATE LAWS BY REFERENCE; PROSPECTIVE
INCORPORATION OF AMENDMENTS.
(a) Whenever any section of this chapter shall indicate that the laws of the
State of Michigan have been incorporated by reference, such laws or
portions thereof as are specified shall be of equal force and effect within
Page 68 of 77 May 29, 2013the jurisdiction of The Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan as if
they had been promulgated by the Tribal Council of The Saginaw
Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan and set forth herein in the entirety;
provided, however, that the penalties for violation thereof shall not be
incorporated herein but shall be as provided in this Code; and provided
further that in the event of any conflict or inconsistency between such
incorporated State Laws and this Code, the provisions of this Code shall
govern.
(b) Wherever such State Laws are incorporated herein by reference,
amendments thereto shall also be deemed to be incorporated upon their
effective date in the State of Michigan without further action by Tribal
Council, provided, however, that in the event of any conflict between such
amendments and the existing provisions of this Code (excepting the State
Law being amended), the provisions of this Code shall govern.
 
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lapeer20m

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
928
Location
Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
I would also like to point out that a pistol in a vehicle is not automatically concealed simply because the pistol is in the vehicle. A pistol on the dash or the front seat is likely plainly visable.

The law requires you have a cpl in order to transport a loaded pistol in a vehicle whether concealed or otherwise.

750.227

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
Or otherwise = not concealed
 

jeffrey-r

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
110
Location
Warren, MI
Before people get crazy on me, I understand that, while in a motor vehicle, it is considered concealed.

I hate that people keep saying this. It's not "considered concealed." It is illegal to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle (period) unless you have an exemption. A concealed pistol license is one of those exemptions.

EDIT: And I see now that someone else has already mentioned this. Yay.
 
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Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
I would also like to point out that a pistol in a vehicle is not automatically concealed simply because the pistol is in the vehicle. A pistol on the dash or the front seat is likely plainly visable.

The law requires you have a cpl in order to transport a loaded pistol in a vehicle whether concealed or otherwise.

750.227


Or otherwise = not concealed

Completely wrong-

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.

(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

Also ref MSP Legal Update 86 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf
 

zigziggityzoo

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
1,543
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Completely wrong-

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.

(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

Also ref MSP Legal Update 86 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf


Actually, completely right. It's even in your quote.

YES, a CPL is required to carry in a vehicle, concealed or otherwise.

That means that you can carry openly in a vehicle - but you need a CPL to do so.
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
Actually, completely right. It's even in your quote.

YES, a CPL is required to carry in a vehicle, concealed or otherwise.

That means that you can carry openly in a vehicle - but you need a CPL to do so.

Semantics.....

The poster I quoted suggested that having the firearm in plain view (e.g on the dashboard) is 'not concealed'. Legally, any firearm in a vehicle is concealed, whether you can see it from outside the vehicle or not. Ergo, a CPL is required, as the firearm is, indeed, concealed.

Someone with less experience could assume from his, and your,comments, that it is possible to 'open carry' in a vehicle. Under Michigan law, it is impossible to open carry in a vehicle.

If it was possible to 'open carry' in (or on) a vehicle, no CPL would be required.
 
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SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
Semantics.....

The poster I quoted suggested that having the firearm in plain view (e.g on the dashboard) is 'not concealed'. Legally, any firearm in a vehicle is concealed, whether you can see it from outside the vehicle or not. Ergo, a CPL is required, as the firearm is, indeed, concealed.

Someone with less experience could assume from his, and your,comments, that it is possible to 'open carry' in a vehicle. Under Michigan law, it is impossible to open carry in a vehicle.

If it was possible to 'open carry' in (or on) a vehicle, no CPL would be required.

No, not at all. The legislature is very clear in this regard. If an individual is non-750.231a compliant [the exceptions to 750.227(2)], the possession a loaded pistol in a vehicle, a CPL is required to do so. Some members here, and elsewhere, are/have been, seeking "loop-holes" which don't exist. Personally, I don't think a permit/license should be required to carry in a vehicle as I see it as an extension of the persons home. But it is what it is, at least for now.

I agree with the red, but ignorance of the law is on that person and not those who have an understanding of them (law).
 

zigziggityzoo

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
1,543
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Semantics.....

What you call semantics, I call legislative intent.

If I carry openly on a motorcycle on a drop-leg holster it's not concealed, but it's still in violation of 750.227(2) because It's "in a vehicle" (we have case law on that), and it's "Concealed OR OTHERWISE" (other than concealed = open).

You start calling THAT concealed carry, and good luck calling IWB tuck carry open in this state like other states have. You're better off calling it what it is.
 
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