Walgreens Cops Called for Open Carry (Encounter Detail)

rightwinglibertarian said:

I would only give them as much trouble as they give me. ...........give me hassle though I will defend my constitutional rights with everything I have.

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This is Truth.

Firstly, welcome to OCDO. You got your first LEO encounter right away and it is behind you. It took years and years before I had mine. I did not record. I started off very polite, was countered by a bully, and it escalated from there.
I like your attitude of Politeness, there is never enough of that. As stated tho, if a LEO acts like an a$$, I will not put up with that. I do not answer questions, I ask questions. Have them justify the stop.

FOI requests. Yes, would you like to know who called? Would you like to know what was said? Would you like to get a copy of the poilce report, just to see if it is based in reality or a definite piece of fiction? All you need do is ask.

Welcome ICEN, I think you did well for the first time

ICEN said:

No

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I think you did very well for a first encounter. Sure, there are lots of things that could be refined, but for someone living in the projects, and fairly young, I think you did well.

I highly recommend a recorder. They can be had for about $50, or many phones have a recorder option. Think of it as insurance.

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Digital-...99910081&sr=8-1&keywords=Sony+Voice+Recorders

It is not easy to be a pioneer, which you are doing in your area. As the police encounter you more, they will become schooled in the law. At some point, I would recommend that you stop producing ID, when you are comfortable with it.


Glad to have you onboard. Next time you might note to the officers that they carry openly.

This......................

MSG Laigaie said:

This......................

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outstanding chart...if this gentleman requests politely could you PM a viable copy suitable for printing?

thanks...

ipse

What can happen with giving ID

ICEN said:

Nobody still answered my question what happened though since I gave ID, I thought I was suppose to be getting 50 questions and them trying to find out ways to arrest me or something lolol

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Most of the time, nothing. But once you give them ID they have much easier access to all of your information, and they have a very clear ID of you at that place and time, and with a gun. Not much good can come of this. There is an excellent video on the net about why not to talk to police:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

The fact is that the odds that this information could be used against you are as likely as that it could be used for you.

My personal reason to refuse ID would be to teach the police that they do not have the right to that information.

In a small area, they will likely get to know you, and it will be a non-issue, or should be.

Another reason to keep from giving them ID is that it gives them more control over you. Once you give them ID, you have incentive not to just walk away, which is your right. If they refuse to give you back your ID, you will be less willing to walk away and leave the ID with them, even if it might be best for you to do so.

Bernymac said:

*snipped*


Uh, no. Not a very sound advice. The old "I have nothing to hide" schtick is such a stupid mentality. Go ahead and be "compliant", but please, do not give out that advice just to be convenient and not looking like an "A-hole".

Do you like being told to hide your gun just so you don't look like an A-hole? Or maybe for the sake of safety? Or maybe convenience? The anti-guns think you look like a total A-hole for open carrying, and the anti-liberty cops think you are an A-hole for exercising your right.

So why not just leave your firearm at home so you don't look like an A-hole?:shocker:

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I promise there is at least one pro-liberty guy who thinks he's an "A-hole" for bending over and, well, being one p).

The point being, you can't win. There will always be someone who thinks you're an "A-hole". The sooner you realize this, and start living your life for yourself, the happier you will be.

I require folks to accept me (or not) on my own terms – although I offer them the same courtesy. Fortunately, though, most folks will accept this if it's clear to them they have no ability to change it.

Incidentally, I have found that a whole lot of self-assurance goes a long way in this regard: most folks are able to pick up on such cues, and respond accordingly. If you project complete confidence that you are supposed to be armed, folks are much less likely to come to any other conclusion. If you convince individuals that you are supposed to be armed, only the most extreme anti-gunners will react in any way.

Please read this as being the most well-meaning advice, as which it is intended: it is clear from your posts, your positions, and your lines of thought that you aren't confident open carrying. That's OK. Most of us were nervous at first, too. But there's a very good chance that your own lack of self-assurance led to a self-fulfilling prophecy of being hassled by the police. Consider: you seem to expect to be stopped. You expect to be placed in a situation where you have to justify and vindicate yourself, by showing ID and listening to a paternalistic lecture. So there is absolutely no surprise when it happens, is there?

Remember: it is your right to be armed as you will. Is is your fundamental human prerogative, as is breathing or being secure in your person. You belong with a gun on your hip, if that's the choice you make. Anybody who would take issue with that needs to deal with their own problems.

Cross-posted (in part) from:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-to-want-to-OC&p=2059707&posted=1#post2059707

MSG Laigaie said:

This......................

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I take issue. In most states there is no requirement to show ID under any circumstances on foot.

In most states, there is no requirement to have ID, and the most than can be required is to correctly and honestly identify oneself.

MSG Laigaie said:

This......................

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I would like to upload this to Facebook if I may. Who do I cite/tag and do you want a link posted here as to where it goes?

What can happen with giving ID

ICEN said:

Nobody still answered my question what happened though since I gave ID, I thought I was suppose to be getting 50 questions and them trying to find out ways to arrest me or something lolol

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Most of the time, nothing. But once you give them ID they have much easier access to all of your information, and they have a very clear ID of you at that place and time, and with a gun. Not much good can come of this. There is an excellent video on the net about why not to talk to police:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

The fact is that the odds that this information could be used against you are as likely as that it could be used for you.

My personal reason to refuse ID would be to teach the police that they do not have the right to that information.

In a small area, they will likely get to know you, and it will be a non-issue, or should be.

Another reason to keep from giving them ID is that it gives them more control over you. Once you give them ID, you have incentive not to just walk away, which is your right. If they refuse to give you back your ID, you will be less willing to walk away and leave the ID with them, even if it might be best for you to do so.

ICEN said:

I am in the city of Uniontown in Pa in case people want to know.

<snip>

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Agent provocatuer?

ICEN said:

Lets pretend I didn't give ID.

I say "NO" (assuming they would have asked for ID)
they stall me by detaining me forcing me to either give ID or false arrest to get ID.

Now what? Lets also pretend I refuse the ID the 2nd time then I am in the back of a police car where they will get my name ect

Now I am suppose to go complain after they still get what they wanted + now everytime I see them they are going to be A-Holes

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Your wallet gets fatter with the settlement or award from the court case after you sue the crap out of them for false arrest.

Stay in the store they have video camera's....why do you think they wanted to get you out side? No camera's and less people to see the violation of your rights.

MSG Laigaie said:

This......................

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I like the were are you going question....

I usally answer with....."now I'm going to put in a FOIA request for all the information pertaining to this stop".

That usually shuts them up...

solus said:

outstanding chart...if this gentleman requests politely could you PM a viable copy suitable for printing?thanks...
ipse

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It is located on our fazeboog page listed in my sig line. I got it from Gun Girlz

marshaul said:

If you project complete confidence that you are supposed to be armed, folks are much less likely to come to any other conclusion.

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This is Truth! Command presence.


and on the other part, some say sheep, some say sheepdog. A Right not Exercised is a Right Lost does not stop at the First and Second Amendment. "With great power, (the Constitution) comes great Responsibility". I have stated before, Citizenship is a Verb.
you might consider this...

This is copied from the 2009 MPOETC police officer in-service update which EVERY police officer in PA has taken.

If an officer can develop reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot, by a
person engaged in open carry, then the temporary seizure of the person and
confiscation of the firearm would be justified, because the person is known to be
armed and dangerous based on the suspected criminal activity and visible
possession of a firearm. A further frisk would also be warranted to ensure the
person was not in possession of any other weapons. If the officer’s investigatory
detention leads to probable cause, then the person may be placed under arrest for
the crime that has been committed. However, if the officer’s suspicion is allayed
then any seized firearms must be returned to the citizen and the citizen must be
released from the investigatory detention. A firearm may be seized from a person
who the officer knows to be prohibited from possessing a firearm under State or
Federal law.

Officers should be aware that citizens may become alarmed or concerned when
they witness persons engaged in open carry. This may be due in part to individual
sensibilities regarding firearms and the fact that persons engaged in open carry are
infrequently encountered in Pennsylvania. However, a citizen’s alarm or concern
does not alone negatively impact the rights of a person engaging in the lawful open
carrying of a firearm. Officers receiving citizen reports of a “man with a gun”
would be prudent to respond to determine the nature of the report. However, the
rights of any person engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm must be
carefully considered when interacting with such person. Persons engaged in the
lawful open carrying of a firearm are not subject to seizure of their person or
property based solely on the fact that they are engaging in open carry, nor may they
be required to produce identification or other documents. A person who is
engaging in open carry in Philadelphia or in an area of declared emergency may be
required to produce a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm or
establish an exemption. Of course, a person engaged in the open carrying of a
firearm may engage in violations of other laws or handle the firearm in an
inappropriate manner which could constitute offenses such as: disorderly conduct,
reckless endangerment, simple assault by physical menace, etc. However, merely
engaging in the open carrying of a firearm would not necessarily constitute such an
offense.

An officer who observes a person who is engaged in the open carrying of a
firearm in the vicinity of a public event attended by the President or other persons
under the protection of the Secret Service must consider whether any violation of
Pennsylvania law is occurring, If there is not a clear violation of the law, it would
be prudent to bring the presence of this person to the attention of the Secret Service
who is empowered under various federal statutes to regulate the possession of
firearms in the vicinity of persons under Secret Service protection.

MSG Laigaie said:

This......................

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+1
This should be a sticky for all new members to see.

Just so you know I would never give the same cops I seen today my ID again since I already did it once.

But next time I will see what happens when I don't show ID if they ask.
I'm not saying the next encounter they will or will not ask but I'm going to see what happens when no ID is given.

Also its funny, my mail man told my mother that some guy was walking around with a rifle and the cops came after him.

Maybe its a coincidence but it seems like someone is carrying a rifle now that someone seen me open carrying because I no of know one other than me that open carries so for someone to suddenly start open carrying is funny.

MSG Laigaie said:

This......................

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this is really good advice here even if you arent carrying. prior to joining this site, had i been stopped by an officer, i would give additional information that was not relevant and would only extend my time spent with the officer.

I had a situation where i was riding my motorcycle home and i saw an officer tailing me. After 4-5 miles, he finally lit me up (looking for a reason to stop me, which can be especially easy on a bike). Anyway, i had been out downtown, some may disagree but i have a strict 2 beverage limit on the bike or car however, even can still put you at risk when stopped since field sobriety tests are subjective and refusing to take one gets you a free ride for a blood test and your vehicle towed.

Anyway, it was a cold winter night, he walks up and before i can do anything he says he stopped me for my license plate being loose. I politely replied that there was no way it was loose because it was held on with 2 SS torx screws and nylon lock nuts and it was likely the rough concrete across the bridge/overpasses in combination with my stiff ohlins sportbike suspension making it appear like it was bouncing. I felt the need to give him my ID, CCW ( i was not carrying) , insurance and registration which i have all in a ziplock bag in my riding jacket but he hadnt asked for it so after he saw the license plate was secure, i simply asked if i was free to go, and added it's very cold out officer and i forgot my neck wind breaker. He looked surprised and just said yeah i guess. i said thank you and put my helmet on and pulled away almost immediately. if i had engaged anymore time with him, it is likely i would have been asked where i had been/going and eventually to take a breathlyzer and or do field sobriety tests which wouldnt play well for me since i was on a long overpass just across the memphis/AR bridge with winter winds, 18 wheelers going by and wearing race/track motorcycle boots.

All of the caveats aside, including never volunteering anything, each person must make their own assessment of what to do and how.

Exercising as much control over the situation as possible is a good thing - I think you did that Kopis. Obviously something went right as your stop was brief and you collected neither official paper nor jewelry. Next time you may respond differently, but it will always be your decision.

Grapeshot said:

All of the caveats aside, including never volunteering anything, each person must make their own assessment of what to do and how.

Exercising as much control over the situation as possible is a good thing - I think you did that Kopis. Obviously something went right as your stop was brief and you collected neither official paper nor jewelry. Next time you may respond differently, but it will always be your decision.

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Thank you Grapeshot. I agree, it's up to each individual to decide what is right for them. For example, AR LEOs are disputing the new OC law but it's not in my capability to test the waters. However, this site has really helped teach me the potential consequences, risks and potential results from a longer LEO interaction so i can make a better informed decision when the situation arises.

ICEN said:

Just so you know I would never give the same cops I [strike]seen[/strike] saw today my ID again since I already did it once...

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If you keep open carrying, the day is going to come when you're going to want to write a letter/note/email to someone in a position of power.

It's better for you to be perceived as a well-spoken individual rather than one who fulfills some individual's stereotype of gun owners/open carriers.

http://tinyurl.com/5wjyduq