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Thread: Suppose I would have been stopped!!!

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    Suppose I would have been stopped!!!

    On Friday my wife and I decided to stop and have a fishfry. I was carrying as always so I had a glass of water and my wife decided to have a glass of beer. As I was sitting there drinking my water, that beer was looking almighty good. So I gave in and ordered one. While my beer was coming I went to the parking and locked my firearm in the trunk and went back in. After eating we were going home and I did not want the firearm rolling around the trunk so I put it back in the holster on my hip. My question is what if I had been stopped on the way home and it was discovered that I was carrying. My blood alcohol level is way below .08 so I am in no danger of DWI and I was not carrying while consuming alcohol, but was I legal or not? I do understand that it was not a very good idea as if worse came to worse it would not look good before a jury. But, was it legal?
    "Democracy..... Is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch,
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    (I)t is a class A misdemeanor (punishable by 9 months jail and/or $10,000 fine) for anyone to go armed with a firearm while under the influence of an intoxicant. Wis. Stat. § 941.20(1)(b). “Under the Influence has been defined as materially impairing the ability to handle a firearm which is further explained as consuming ―an amount of alcohol to cause the person to be less able to exercise clear judgment and steady hand necessary to handle a firearm.

    941.20  Endangering safety by use of dangerous weapon.
    (1) Whoever does any of the following is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor:
    (a) Endangers another's safety by the negligent operation or handling of a dangerous weapon; or
    (b) Operates or goes armed with a firearm while he or she is under the influence of an intoxicant; or
    (bm) Operates or goes armed with a firearm while he or she has a detectable amount of a restricted controlled substance in his or her blood. A defendant has a defense to any action under this paragraph that is based on the defendant allegedly having a detectable amount of methamphetamine, gamma-hydroxybutyric acid, or delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol in his or her blood, if he or she proves by a preponderance of the evidence that at the time of the incident or occurrence he or she had a valid prescription for methamphetamine or one of its metabolic precursors, gamma-hydroxybutyric acid, or delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol.
    (c) Except as provided in sub. (1m), intentionally points a firearm at or toward another.
    (d) While on the lands of another discharges a firearm within 100 yards of any building devoted to human occupancy situated on and attached to the lands of another without the express permission of the owner or occupant of the building. "Building" as used in this paragraph does not include any tent, bus, truck, vehicle or similar portable unit.
    Words and Phrases Defined
    (42) "Under the influence of an intoxicant" means that the actor's ability to operate a vehicle or handle a firearm or airgun is materially impaired because of his or her consumption of an alcohol beverage, hazardous inhalant, of a controlled substance or controlled substance analog under ch. 961, of any combination of an alcohol beverage, hazardous inhalant, controlled substance and controlled substance analog, or of any other drug, or of an alcohol beverage and any other drug.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 05-11-2014 at 10:13 PM.

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    Eating animals that swim in their own toilet should certainly be illegal .... but I am not that familiar with WS law...

    As for the rest, as a carrier, I assume you know if you have have a few and will or will not turn into a psychopathic killer.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kc.38 View Post
    On Friday my wife and I decided to stop and have a fishfry. I was carrying as always so I had a glass of water and my wife decided to have a glass of beer. As I was sitting there drinking my water, that beer was looking almighty good. So I gave in and ordered one. While my beer was coming I went to the parking and locked my firearm in the trunk and went back in. After eating we were going home and I did not want the firearm rolling around the trunk so I put it back in the holster on my hip. My question is what if I had been stopped on the way home and it was discovered that I was carrying. My blood alcohol level is way below .08 so I am in no danger of DWI and I was not carrying while consuming alcohol, but was I legal or not? I do understand that it was not a very good idea as if worse came to worse it would not look good before a jury. But, was it legal?
    First, glad you got home OK.

    But I have to take you to task over a few things.
    1. You give the 'reason' for putting the firearm back in your holster as 'rolling around in the trunk'. This is lame. Through a series of events it could have lead to you losing your permit, your firearm and then had a police record.
    2. You come on to a forum to ask such a question. You really need to learn the law. It's totally irresponsible for a firearm carrier to not know the law, AND to not know how to look up the law in their state.
    3. You go out drinking with your firearm. Why not drink at home? You thus violated one of the '3S' rules (going to bars, armed) in your state.

    I would suggest you wake up, consider yourself lucky and don't go down this road again. What if you had to defend a loved one with alcohol in your system? Many locations don't list this as a problem but why complicate things. Sure go out, but don't imbibe - save that for when you get home - the penalties are just too high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    3. You go out drinking with your firearm. Why not drink at home? You thus violated one of the '3S' rules (going to bars, armed) in your state.
    OP sounds like he had no intention of drinking when he went out. It's not illegal to go into a bar armed in Wisconsin unless the establishment is posted or one is consuming while armed.

    He disarmed before he drank, and unless he's a dwarf didn't consume anywhere near the amount it would take to be impaired. Though I agree rearming with an odor of intoxicants on his breath could have put him into a bit trick bag.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    First, glad you got home OK.

    But I have to take you to task over a few things.
    1. You give the 'reason' for putting the firearm back in your holster as 'rolling around in the trunk'. This is lame. Through a series of events it could have lead to you losing your permit, your firearm and then had a police record.
    2. You come on to a forum to ask such a question. You really need to learn the law. It's totally irresponsible for a firearm carrier to not know the law, AND to not know how to look up the law in their state.
    3. You go out drinking with your firearm. Why not drink at home? You thus violated one of the '3S' rules (going to bars, armed) in your state.

    I would suggest you wake up, consider yourself lucky and don't go down this road again. What if you had to defend a loved one with alcohol in your system? Many locations don't list this as a problem but why complicate things. Sure go out, but don't imbibe - save that for when you get home - the penalties are just too high.
    1) It isn't illegal to consume alcohol and be armed.
    2) Not everyone knows the law 100%, including police.
    3) What's wrong with consuming alcohol and carrying? There are a number of states that do not prohibit it, and, somehow don't have any problems with the law abiding citizen.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Put a handgun case in your trunk for next time. Problem solved. Don't let the teetotalers bother you.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    1) It isn't illegal to consume alcohol and be armed.
    2) Not everyone knows the law 100%, including police.
    3) What's wrong with consuming alcohol and carrying? There are a number of states that do not prohibit it, and, somehow don't have any problems with the law abiding citizen.
    I was talking directly to HIS query, exposure to liability and the law.

    You're talking morality and beverage choices. Non sequitur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    I was talking directly to HIS query, exposure to liability and the law.

    You're talking morality and beverage choices. Non sequitur.
    So what you are saying is, legally speaking, you didn't read post 2?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    1) .
    .
    3) What's wrong with consuming alcohol and carrying? There are a number of states that do not prohibit it, and, somehow don't have any problems with the law abiding citizen.
    Nothing

    I personally do not think it is good idea to impair ones thought process when doing certain activities.

    I am a firm believer in ones being responsible for ones own actions even if intoxicating substances help one make stupid decisions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Nothing

    I personally do not think it is good idea to impair ones thought process when doing certain activities.

    I am a firm believer in ones being responsible for ones own actions even if intoxicating substances help one make stupid decisions.
    Fine, then punish the stupid decision. Does one lose the right to self defense if you are consuming alcohol?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    1) It isn't illegal to consume alcohol and be armed.
    In a tavern it most certainly is.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    In a tavern it most certainly is.
    I wasn't talking about a tavern, but since you brought it up, that is correct.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    2. You come on to a forum to ask such a question. You really need to learn the law. It's totally irresponsible for a firearm carrier to not know the law, AND to not know how to look up the law in their state.
    3. You go out drinking with your firearm. Why not drink at home? You thus violated one of the '3S' rules (going to bars, armed) in your state.
    I do not think that what I did was a good idea as I mentioned in the OP but only because if something were to happen and I was forced to defend myself or my wife my judgement could be called into question. We had my dads car to clean and gas it up for him and I seldom drive it. All my vehicles have safes in them.
    Here is something to think about: Two hunters in Langlade county walking out of the wood after bowhunting. They both have their ccw "permit". They each were drinking beer on the way to their truck that is parked on a woods trail near by. They both were carrying but the ranger only arrested one of them. Why, the one that walked away was OCing.
    Maverick: So you think that I" need to learn the laws of my state", REALLY. PK Bites is correct Also, this is a restaurant that serves beer.
    "Democracy..... Is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch,
    Liberty..... Is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kc.38 View Post
    : Two hunters in Langlade county walking out of the wood after bowhunting. They both have their ccw "permit". They each were drinking beer on the way to their truck that is parked on a woods trail near by. They both were carrying but the ranger only arrested one of them. Why, the one that walked away was OCing.
    Maverick: So you think that I" need to learn the laws of my state", REALLY. PK Bites is correct Also, this is a restaurant that serves beer.
    By arrested to mean cuffed and taken away to jail or given a citation for some thing.

    Could it be was one was intoxicated one wasn't.

    Is this first hand knowledge or 2nd hand information.

    Was it a park ranger, game warden, forest ranger. State land, federal land, county land

    Was there a conviction and if so for what.
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Fine, then punish the stupid decision. Does one lose the right to self defense if you are consuming alcohol?

    Absolutely correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    By arrested to mean cuffed and taken away to jail or given a citation for some thing.

    Could it be was one was intoxicated one wasn't.

    Is this first hand knowledge or 2nd hand information.

    Was it a park ranger, game warden, forest ranger. State land, federal land, county land

    Was there a conviction and if so for what.
    I will admit to this being 2nd hand information, however from several different people. I will see if I can find more. The common understanding is that the CCer was arrested by a deputy sheriff for drinking alcohol while carrying while the OCer was doing nothing illegal. My understanding is neither had more then one beer. (But we have heard that before)
    "Democracy..... Is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch,
    Liberty..... Is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
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    as a side note, NC statutes explicitly state: '...at any time while the person has remaining in the person's body any alcohol....' (14.415.11 (C1)) and the common mantra is from DWI checkpoints ~ blow anything lose your CHP and firearm yet can drive home.

    there is a contention by some NC citizens, myself included, there is a loophole where the statute does not apply to those who OC and imbibe since this particular statute specifically only mentions those who CC and ramifications of imbibing for them. The other kicker centers around is your firearm concealed on your hip while driving...another small point of contention.

    myself, i think the advice given to get a box for your trunk could be strengthen, get one of the small key gun safes and either bolt it or tether it appropriately in your trunk, ensuring both you and your partner have keys.

    i am just glad your luck is better than mine, because if i had tried drinking while having one beer and a firearm, i would have run into every DWI checkpoint in area.

    i would like to hear more on the two hunters and if the LE participating was a wild life ranger etc., as they have a different set of rules they march to.
    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 05-13-2014 at 10:29 AM.
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    I believe that in Wisconsin there are very few laws written for OC however there are many written for CC. Now do I trust a LEO to know the difference, NO. On what I have read I believe that it would be lawful to sit in a restaurant, have a beer, with my cover garment lifted to expose my firearm. However I don't believe that I will be trying it any time soon.
    "Democracy..... Is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch,
    Liberty..... Is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kc.38 View Post
    I believe that in Wisconsin there are very few laws written for OC however there are many written for CC. Now do I trust a LEO to know the difference, NO. On what I have read I believe that it would be lawful to sit in a restaurant, have a beer, with my cover garment lifted to expose my firearm. However I don't believe that I will be trying it any time soon.
    You can only do that if you have permission from the liquor license holder.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    as a side note, NC statutes explicitly state: '...at any time while the person has remaining in the person's body any alcohol....' (14.415.11 (C1)) and the common mantra is from DWI checkpoints ~ blow anything lose your CHP and firearm yet can drive home.

    there is a contention by some NC citizens, myself included, there is a loophole where the statute does not apply to those who OC and imbibe since this particular statute specifically only mentions those who CC and ramifications of imbibing for them. The other kicker centers around is your firearm concealed on your hip while driving...another small point of contention.

    myself, i think the advice given to get a box for your trunk could be strengthen, get one of the small key gun safes and either bolt it or tether it appropriately in your trunk, ensuring both you and your partner have keys.
    As mentioned, this was not my car.
    i am just glad your luck is better than mine, because if i had tried drinking while having one beer and a firearm, i would have run into every DWI checkpoint in area.
    I do not believe that these are legal in Wi. I have never seen one here.

    i would like to hear more on the two hunters and if the LE participating was a wild life ranger etc., as they have a different set of rules they march to.
    ipse
    I believe that the story goes that the DNR official called the sheriff deputy to arrest the hunter.
    Last edited by Kc.38; 05-13-2014 at 11:09 AM.
    "Democracy..... Is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch,
    Liberty..... Is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kc.38 View Post
    I believe that in Wisconsin there are very few laws written for OC however there are many written for CC. Now do I trust a LEO to know the difference, NO. On what I have read I believe that it would be lawful to sit in a restaurant, have a beer, with my cover garment lifted to expose my firearm. However I don't believe that I will be trying it any time soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    You can only do that if you have permission from the liquor license holder.
    Updated 2011−12 Wis. Stats. Published and certified under s. 35.18. May 10, 2014.
    CHAPTER 941 CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY

    §941.237 Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages may be sold and consumed.
    [ ... ]
    (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any premises for which a Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit has been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following:
    [ ... ]
    (cx) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out−of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or out−of−state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.
    [ ... ]
    (g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or
    manager of the premises who is issued the Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/doc.../ch.%20941.pdf

    §941.237 covers possession of openly carried weapons generally, except §941.237(3)(cx) reference to §175.60 is to licensed concealed weapons carriers. Consumption is not permitted under this subsection which is generally prohibited by

    §941.20 Endangering safety by use of dangerous weapon.
    (1) Whoever does any of the following is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor:
    (a) Endangers another’s safety by the negligent operation or
    handling of a dangerous weapon; or
    (b) Operates or goes armed with a firearm while he or she is
    under the influence of an intoxicant; [ ... ]
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-13-2014 at 11:41 AM.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias
    1) It isn't illegal to consume alcohol and be armed.
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites
    In a tavern it most certainly is.
    Only if carrying on a license.
    Open carry (no license, but permission of owner or manager) and imbibing (as long as not materially impaired) is legal because there's no law saying it's illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by solus
    there is a contention by some NC citizens, myself included, there is a loophole where the statute does not apply to those who OC and imbibe since this particular statute specifically only mentions those who CC and ramifications of imbibing for them.
    Exactly right.
    WI 941.237 (3)(cx) specifically says that a licensee carrying in a tavern is not allowed to drink alcohol on the premises.

    Notice that none of the other exceptions (police officer, former officer, out of state officer, owner, manager, or employee of the tavern, on-duty correctional officer, on-duty military member, on-duty security guard) have the restriction about not being allowed to drink alcohol while armed in a tavern.
    It's only licensees whom the legislature considers irresponsible.
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