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Thread: Handgun private sale

  1. #1
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    Handgun private sale

    How do you handle a private sale for a handgun when dealing with someone who is under 21? I know you have to get a pistol purchase permit but after you get one how would you handle the sale?

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    while normally the smart arse, i'm not in this instance...

    depends...

    are you the buyer or seller of said transaction?

    who are the participants?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Outside the PPP, nothing. If it was I, would check the PPP against a ID. If a buyer make sure to get a bill of sale, just in case the gun ever comes up stolen.

    Sheriffs depts do a check for a PPP, and ATF has accepted those as a background check for dealers. So a person knows the buyer at least at the time of the PPP is legal. PPP's are good for five years, so ya might want to look at the date, though as long as not over the limit the seller is not responsible if the buyer has done something since that time.

    My biggest fear with buying from an unknown individual is even with a BOS if the gun comes up stolen, kiss it goodbye. I have a friend whose chain saw was stolen last year, he found it in a pawn shop and called the cops. The pawn shop is out the money they gave the thief for the saw. Legal owner got his saw back.
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    You must be reasonably sure the person is allowed to own/possess a handgun. Check ID that the person is a state resident and has a PPP. As a private seller you are not required to maintain any record of the transaction. Depending on the legal definition of "present" (buyer must present a PPP) you are not required to take the PPP from the buyer.

    If the buyer is from Forsyth county, the sheriff will not issue a PPP to someone under 21 (I have this in writing from them).

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    14.402 is the NC statute covering the selling of a firearm in this state. http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...rticle_52A.pdf

    you have been given excellent advice by both forum members, especially WW regarding stolen property since i perceive, based on your previous postings, you are the individual <21 purchasing the firearm from another individual. therefore, to your own satisfaction, do due diligence and try to determine where the seller, e.g., 'Joe shady character' or your very best friend Ray, got the firearm, thus saving you grief in the future.

    One small point of contention to mention at this stage, if very best friend's caregiver, (or anybody > 21 for that matter) is going to go to an FFL and purchase the firearm for you (you provide the money before or after the sale)...that could be considered, by ATF's perception, a strawman purchase and as you can imagine is a violation of federal law.

    the other concept is if your caregiver has purchased the firearm and 'gifting' it to you, which at this time you, theoretically, you do not need a PPP.

    private sale or purchase from private individual is easy but has it's worries at times, which is why i was curious of the particulars.

    one final thought...if you are the seller, keep their PPP and issue a BOS and if the buyer get a BOS and make a copy of your PPP and insist the seller keep it, just to protect your arse.

    hopefully, this provides insight for your upcoming sale or purchase of a firearm.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 05-13-2014 at 11:35 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    You must be reasonably sure the person is allowed to own/possess a handgun. Check ID that the person is a state resident and has a PPP. As a private seller you are not required to maintain any record of the transaction. Depending on the legal definition of "present" (buyer must present a PPP) you are not required to take the PPP from the buyer.

    If the buyer is from Forsyth county, the sheriff will not issue a PPP to someone under 21 (I have this in writing from them).
    btw...there is no mandate prohibiting private sales from or to out of state individuals. for example, if an individual has a valid PPP from 2 years ago while they maintained residence in NC and in the interim moved out of state to SC, the former NC can return to NC and purchase from a private NC seller and only is required to provide their still valid PPP IAW 14.402.

    food for thought!!

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Outside the PPP, nothing. If it was I, would check the PPP against a ID. If a buyer make sure to get a bill of sale, just in case the gun ever comes up stolen.

    Sheriffs depts do a check for a PPP, and ATF has accepted those as a background check for dealers. So a person knows the buyer at least at the time of the PPP is legal. PPP's are good for five years, so ya might want to look at the date, though as long as not over the limit the seller is not responsible if the buyer has done something since that time.

    My biggest fear with buying from an unknown individual is even with a BOS if the gun comes up stolen, kiss it goodbye. I have a friend whose chain saw was stolen last year, he found it in a pawn shop and called the cops. The pawn shop is out the money they gave the thief for the saw. Legal owner got his saw back.
    I am 20 and I am buying from a friend who is a LEO. But he has never dealt with
    a private sale with someone who is under 21

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j.clay507 View Post
    I am 20 and I am buying from a friend who is a LEO. But he has never dealt with
    a private sale with someone who is under 21
    Be very careful here, if he is buying the gun for you from a FFL you are both committing felonies, LEO or not.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j.clay507 View Post
    I am 20 and I am buying from a friend who is a LEO. But he has never dealt with
    a private sale with someone who is under 21
    extremely careful..see my previous post about strawman sales.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Be very careful here, if he is buying the gun for you from a FFL you are both committing felonies, LEO or not.
    He is NOT buying one for me. Its a pistol that he has had for years that I am buying from him. Just wondering how to do it so we handle it the right way

  11. #11
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j.clay507 View Post
    He is NOT buying one for me. Its a pistol that he has had for years that I am buying from him. Just wondering how to do it so we handle it the right way
    Just wanted to be sure you understood. We only have the information you give us.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    btw...there is no mandate prohibiting private sales from or to out of state individuals. for example, if an individual has a valid PPP from 2 years ago while they maintained residence in NC and in the interim moved out of state to SC, the former NC can return to NC and purchase from a private NC seller and only is required to provide their still valid PPP IAW 14.402.

    food for thought!!

    ipse
    14-402 (snipped) (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.

    My consumption of this food is that the person must be a resident at the time of purchase, which you have stated. If he does not present proof of such residency, no sale/transfer will occur between he and I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    14.402 is the NC statute covering the selling of a firearm in this state. http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...rticle_52A.pdf

    you have been given excellent advice by both forum members, especially WW regarding stolen property since i perceive, based on your previous postings, you are the individual <21 purchasing the firearm from another individual. therefore, to your own satisfaction, do due diligence and try to determine where the seller, e.g., 'Joe shady character' or your very best friend Ray, got the firearm, thus saving you grief in the future.

    One small point of contention to mention at this stage, if very best friend's caregiver, (or anybody > 21 for that matter) is going to go to an FFL and purchase the firearm for you (you provide the money before or after the sale)...that could be considered, by ATF's perception, a strawman purchase and as you can imagine is a violation of federal law.

    the other concept is if your caregiver has purchased the firearm and 'gifting' it to you, which at this time you, theoretically, you do not need a PPP.

    private sale or purchase from private individual is easy but has it's worries at times, which is why i was curious of the particulars.

    one final thought...if you are the seller, keep their PPP and issue a BOS and if the buyer get a BOS and make a copy of your PPP and insist the seller keep it, just to protect your arse.

    hopefully, this provides insight for your upcoming sale or purchase of a firearm.

    ipse
    I already got a PPP. I just needed to go from there. Hes not buying one for me he has had this pistol before i knew him and he is a LEO. Just want to make sure we do it right

  14. #14
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    14-402 (snipped) (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.

    My consumption of this food is that the person must be a resident at the time of purchase, which you have stated. If he does not present proof of such residency, no sale/transfer will occur between he and I.
    I am sorry you are still confused by my post as you have now stated something i did not say.

    let's be clear...while i am not an attorney, my reading of the statutes in question, leads me to believe, you do not have to be a current resident of this state to purchase a firearm from a private seller if they use < 5 yo PPPs previously purchased in accordance with statute while you were a NC resident.

    further there is no salutatory requirement for a private seller to proffer a NC DL as your previous statement posted on this thread stated. This could lead reader(s) to believe citizens in NC are mandated to present a driver's license to consummate a private firearm sale.

    now you state your comment about requiring a NC DL was personal opinion and without any kind of merit. nice solid advice for the OP and future membership trying to understand how to accomplish a private sale.

    ipse.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  15. #15
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    good luck with your purchase, as well as enjoy the OC'g you intend to do.

    btw did you ever say what you are purchasing? wait, LE seller, it has to be a glock huh?

    as you can see guidance floats from hyperbole to vague statutes but i am surprised your friend, as an LE was unaware of or had an inability to locate appropriate salutatory guidance on the subject. but that is a conversation over coffee/chai.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 05-14-2014 at 07:02 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    I am sorry you are still confused by my post as you have now stated something i did not say.

    let's be clear...while i am not an attorney, my reading of the statutes in question, leads me to believe, you do not have to be a current resident of this state to purchase a firearm from a private seller if they use < 5 yo PPPs previously purchased in accordance with statute while you were a NC resident.
    Reread your post. You're right; you only said a former NC resident who acquired a PPP while a resident could return and use that PPP to buy a handgun.

    further there is no salutatory requirement for a private seller to proffer a NC DL as your previous statement posted on this thread stated. This could lead reader(s) to believe citizens in NC are mandated to present a driver's license to consummate a private firearm sale.
    Nowhere have I used the term 'NC DL'. If you can find where I did, please quote it.

    now you state your comment about requiring a NC DL was personal opinion and without any kind of merit.
    ipse.
    Again, not only did I not mention a NC DL , I also did not say it was just a personal requirement. I did state the need to ensure buyer was a NC resident, as that is my interpretation of the law. But, along with you, I am not an attorney. Go with your own reading.

    nice solid advice for the OP and future membership trying to understand how to accomplish a private sale.
    Just another example of your own words:
    while normally the smart arse
    I don't think I took the 'advice' line out of context.

  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    I am sorry you are still confused by my post as you have now stated something i did not say.

    let's be clear...while i am not an attorney, my reading of the statutes in question, leads me to believe, you do not have to be a current resident of this state to purchase a firearm from a private seller if they use < 5 yo PPPs previously purchased in accordance with statute while you were a NC resident.

    further there is no salutatory requirement for a private seller to proffer a NC DL as your previous statement posted on this thread stated. This could lead reader(s) to believe citizens in NC are mandated to present a driver's license to consummate a private firearm sale.

    now you state your comment about requiring a NC DL was personal opinion and without any kind of merit. nice solid advice for the OP and future membership trying to understand how to accomplish a private sale.

    ipse.
    Unless I have missed it, there are no requirements for the seller of a firearm spelled out, only what it is illegal for a buyer to do. Which means the seller does not have to do anything, as long as the buyer has no information that buyer has disabilities. If I have missed the statute where a seller must obtain information from the buyer hopefully somebody will step up and cite it.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Unless I have missed it, there are no requirements for the seller of a firearm spelled out, only what it is illegal for a buyer to do. Which means the seller does not have to do anything, as long as the buyer has no information that buyer has disabilities. If I have missed the statute where a seller must obtain information from the buyer hopefully somebody will step up and cite it.
    +1

    I have never heard of any requirements for a private seller to get any extra information other than VIEWING the PPP (for a pistol purchase).

    The seller likely *SHOULD* (IMO) get some information (a photocopy of the PPP and/or NCDL would be good) should the buyer (or subsequent buyers) do something illegal with the firearm, just a CYA kinda thing.
    Last edited by carolina guy; 05-14-2014 at 12:23 PM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  19. #19
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    You must be reasonably sure the person is allowed to own/possess a handgun. Check ID that the person is a state resident and has a PPP. snip
    1. see above.

    2. 14-402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.
    (a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: 1. abbreviated: '...by the purchaser or receiver ~ PPP...'; 2. abbreviated:'...CHP...by the purchaser or receiver....'

    this statute applied to both private sales as well to those FFLs doing trade in the state of NC.

    backhanded insults are a way of life with some.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 05-14-2014 at 01:52 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Agree, it is required to have the PPP, or CHP, but no other requirements that I know of for ID. Though it would be a good idea to have some form of ID to back up the PPP/CHP.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    1. see above.

    2. 14-402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.
    (a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: 1. abbreviated: '...by the purchaser or receiver ~ PPP...'; 2. abbreviated:'...CHP...by the purchaser or receiver....'

    this statute applied to both private sales as well to those FFLs doing trade in the state of NC.

    backhanded insults are a way of life with some.

    ipse
    I got 14-402. I even posted part of it myself. What I desired of you was a cite for your statement that I required a NC DL as proof of residency. You failed, because I did not say that.

    If you can, go back through all posts I've ever made. You'll find the only one that fits this is my response to yours; that's less than a "way of life". I don't have the vocabulary you use, but I am not going to step aside from someone making it personal.

  22. #22
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    every thing is fine go ahead and buy the gun.

    can we not bring action against the Forsyth county sheriff?
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    +1

    I have never heard of any requirements for a private seller to get any extra information other than VIEWING the PPP (for a pistol purchase).

    The seller likely *SHOULD* (IMO) get some information (a photocopy of the PPP and/or NCDL would be good) should the buyer (or subsequent buyers) do something illegal with the firearm, just a CYA kinda thing.
    What would you be charged with if a buyer did something illegal with a gun (or vehicle) you once owned?

    How would paperwork not required by law prevent you from being charged with said crime?

  24. #24
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leader View Post
    What would you be charged with if a buyer did something illegal with a gun (or vehicle) you once owned?

    How would bypaperwork not required by law prevent you from being charged with said crime?
    Reasonable doubt.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    btw...there is no mandate prohibiting private sales from or to out of state individuals. for example, if an individual has a valid PPP from 2 years ago while they maintained residence in NC and in the interim moved out of state to SC, the former NC can return to NC and purchase from a private NC seller and only is required to provide their still valid PPP IAW 14.402.

    food for thought!!



    ipse

    ...if an individual did this, he would be breaking Federal law, as would the seller...an individual sale is only legal when both parties are currently legal residents of the same state...if not, they must transfer through an FFL...

    ATF 5300.4 of Sep 2005 p177 B. UNLICENSED PERSONS (B1) and (B2)

    ...the state PPP was issued on a set of facts that have changed since it was granted...the issuing authority would tell you that it's no longer valid, since you are no longer a resident of NC...if the buyer's residence is now SC, the NC-issued PPP is not valid...

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