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Thread: Question for the LEOs

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Question for the LEOs

    I had double knee replacements the end of Jan. and I just started driving again and walking without crutches just 2 days ago. My question is this, how do I respond to LEO if stopped and ordered out of the car keeping my hands up, as I can not get in or out without using my hands to help bend the knees enough to get through the door? Or if driving my truck (F350 4X4) I have to use the assist handle on the door frame to get in or out.

    Also when I start OCing again (I CC now as I could not defend against a snatch) one of the first things a cop tends to yell if responding to a MWG call is "GET ON THE GROUND/KNEES". I can barely bend the knees 90* and the leg muscles are still weak from getting cut and laying around for 3 months and there is no way in hell I can get on the ground or drop to my knees, and generally knee replacement folks can't ever get on their knees due to pain and restricted mobility.

    How does one respond to LEO orders when they are physically unable to comply?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Not a LEO, but I can offer some suggestions.

    Stick your hands out the window and yell back at the cop that you cannot get out without using your hands.

    Same for responding to the get-on-the-ground command.

    They have radios and most cops love to come play back-up. Let them invite their friends to form a circular firing squad.

    This is also why you should have digital voice recorders* if not as well as dash cams that you can turn towards yourself.

    stay safe.

    * - know your state laws on audio and visual recording, and if legal remember that "two is one and one is none" applies to most things in life - and especially so to the important things.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Kudos to you. I have had a total knee replacement with my right knee and a partial replacement of my left... that one being 9 1/2 weeks ago. Having never been asked to get out of the car as an adult or get on the ground, I can't offer any suggestions other than to do what skid suggested. Things must be rough now in Colorado.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I had double knee replacements the end of Jan. and I just started driving again and walking without crutches just 2 days ago. My question is this, how do I respond to LEO if stopped and ordered out of the car keeping my hands up, as I can not get in or out without using my hands to help bend the knees enough to get through the door? Or if driving my truck (F350 4X4) I have to use the assist handle on the door frame to get in or out.

    Also when I start OCing again (I CC now as I could not defend against a snatch) one of the first things a cop tends to yell if responding to a MWG call is "GET ON THE GROUND/KNEES". I can barely bend the knees 90* and the leg muscles are still weak from getting cut and laying around for 3 months and there is no way in hell I can get on the ground or drop to my knees, and generally knee replacement folks can't ever get on their knees due to pain and restricted mobility.

    How does one respond to LEO orders when they are physically unable to comply?
    If ordered to show hands then do so. If then ordered to exit and you know you have to move your hands your MUCH better ignoring the exit order and keeping your hands visible then yelling/calling out to them you cant physically do it.

    If I can see a guys hands and hes ignoring an order then oh well you find a way to safely see what the deal is. But if a guy starts pulling his hands in and I can't see what's going on it kicks up the wtf meter a bit.

    Same with after exiting if for some crazy reason your ordered to the ground NO movement is much better then not requested/unexpected movement.

    Big thing is remain calm and explain the situation. If your clearly an older gentleman then any Leo with a little sense will immediately take it down a notch and respond accordingly.

    Also, yea carry a recording device if possible. I sincerely doubt you'd ever be in this situation since I'm assuming your an LAC who just goes about his business. But if for some reason you are and if for some reason the Leo doesn't listen or acts like a d-bag, then your recording will be there to hopefully make him pay for said mistakes or wrong doing.

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    How about if a cop orders you to do somersaults ?

    Or dunk a basketball?

    I would recommend responding with a plethora of obscenities explaining why you will not perform.

    People expect old folks to act like this. It what make them so adorable.

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    I think you're worrying about something that is highly unlikely to be an issue. I was stopped quite a few times last year and had several other LEO interactions (im 30 years old, in shape) and ive never been ordered to get on the ground or anything. In the unlikely event you are stopped, just be normal. I would think you were need to be seen as a threat or be acting like a threat to an LEO to be ordered on the ground like that.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    I think you're worrying about something that is highly unlikely to be an issue. I was stopped quite a few times last year and had several other LEO interactions (im 30 years old, in shape) and ive never been ordered to get on the ground or anything. In the unlikely event you are stopped, just be normal. I would think you were need to be seen as a threat or be acting like a threat to an LEO to be ordered on the ground like that.
    Agreed. Also find it unlikely it would occur. Especially if everyone is remaining calm at the time.



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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Kudos to you. I have had a total knee replacement with my right knee and a partial replacement of my left... that one being 9 1/2 weeks ago. Having never been asked to get out of the car as an adult or get on the ground, I can't offer any suggestions other than to do what skid suggested. Things must be rough now in Colorado.
    Unlikely to happen yes, I am also unlikely to be in an accident, but I always fasten my seat-belt, just nice to know LEO perspective in advance.

    Not too worried about Western CO where I live but I make frequent trips to the Denver area and the Peoples Republic of Boulder where there have been some problems encountered by OCers. I could see being on the fringe of Denver (no OC in Denver) and a MWG call as I was leaving a stop-n-rob with a vehicle description resulting in a felony vehicle stop and being unable to comply with orders to exit the car. In Grand Junction the biggest problem is getting through one of the events held on Main St. without getting stopped to either thank me for my service (USMC Devil Dog tattoo on my right forearm) or for carrying.

    I use to install and maintain business telephone systems in Indiana, disruptive service usually had to be done after hours and I have been engaged by LEO for going in and out of businesses after hours (I usually OCed after hours), ordered to the ground, hands on the wall etc. nearly got shot exiting the backdoor of a bank at 2:00 AM so maybe I am a little paranoid and reading some of the bad experiences of others on the boards doesn't help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I use to install and maintain business telephone systems in Indiana, disruptive service usually had to be done after hours and I have been engaged by LEO for going in and out of businesses after hours (I usually OCed after hours), ordered to the ground, hands on the wall etc. nearly got shot exiting the backdoor of a bank at 2:00 AM so maybe I am a little paranoid and reading some of the bad experiences of others on the boards doesn't help.
    Did you have a shot taken at you? Sounds like a fun job! A cop orders you to do something you cannot do; tell 'em to pound sand.

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    Regular Member DaveT319's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    If ordered to show hands then do so. If then ordered to exit and you know you have to move your hands your MUCH better ignoring the exit order and keeping your hands visible then yelling/calling out to them you cant physically do it.
    You know darn well that most cops these days would come up to the car and yank the occupant to the ground if he ignored an order to get out of the car. Cops have become VERY aggressive in the last couple decades - not that it's completely without cause - and do not take their orders not being followed very well. They usually respond by trying to "overwhelm with force" to minimize resistance.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Go to your doctor.

    Get a prescription for DOT.

    Acquire handicap plates.

    Have them installed on your vehicle.

    For out of the vehicle carry a cane, it is a good indication you are disabled, and very useful to prevent the famous gun grab.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveT319 View Post
    You know darn well that most cops these days would come up to the car and yank the occupant to the ground if he ignored an order to get out of the car. Cops have become VERY aggressive in the last couple decades - not that it's completely without cause - and do not take their orders not being followed very well. They usually respond by trying to "overwhelm with force" to minimize resistance.
    I don't do any such thing. Especially to elderly or even older people in general.

    I explained my opinion in what I do and what I've seen done on a regular basis. I'll stress again as long as hands are shown then chances are diminished of it going "aggressive". Are there some cops that have or do get mad and yank people out? Yes. Are they the majority ? No. So a base line normal answer was given.

    I'm sure your insight from YouTube is very informative. That must be where your getting stuff like "overwhelm with force" from.

    If an Leo feels the needs to overwhelm anything with an older gentleman then they have issues. As such should/would hopefully be documented with audio/video recording and fixed appropriately.

    We aren't talking about a car full of kids driving erratically leaving the scene of a shooting. We were discussing him on a normal traffic stop.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Go to your doctor.

    Get a prescription for DOT.

    Acquire handicap plates.

    Have them installed on your vehicle.

    For out of the vehicle carry a cane, it is a good indication you are disabled, and very useful to prevent the famous gun grab.
    Actually I agree with this. Good idea.

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    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Actually I agree with this. Good idea.

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    Did you say "cane" or "fully automatic rifle with a grenade launcher" ... they look so similar ....

    I think the OP is terrified of his local PDs.

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    Regular Member DaveT319's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I don't do any such thing. Especially to elderly or even older people in general.

    I explained my opinion in what I do and what I've seen done on a regular basis. I'll stress again as long as hands are shown then chances are diminished of it going "aggressive". Are there some cops that have or do get mad and yank people out? Yes. Are they the majority ? No. So a base line normal answer was given.

    I'm sure your insight from YouTube is very informative. That must be where your getting stuff like "overwhelm with force" from.

    If an Leo feels the needs to overwhelm anything with an older gentleman then they have issues. As such should/would hopefully be documented with audio/video recording and fixed appropriately.

    We aren't talking about a car full of kids driving erratically leaving the scene of a shooting. We were discussing him on a normal traffic stop.

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    YOU may not do it, but plenty do. And I didn't see anywhere that the OP said he's old, just that he'd not very mobile.

    You're saying the plethora of videos on YouTube and MANY other sites across the internet are not real? There's plenty of evidence that cops as a whole are becoming more and more aggressive. As I said, it's not entirely without justification, but it IS happening.

    "A normal traffic stop" where the occupant is being told to keep his hands visible and to get out of the vehicle? Sounds more like a case where the cops are already at a heightened alertness (why we're talking about such a scenario if the guy is a LAC, but whatever). So the possibility of him being yanked out of the car for not obeying their orders is much higher than a "normal traffic stop". Whether YOU would do so does not mean whoever has stopped him won't do so.
    Last edited by DaveT319; 05-14-2014 at 10:10 PM.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveT319 View Post
    YOU may not do it, but plenty do. And I didn't see anywhere that the OP said he's old, just that he'd not very mobile.

    You're saying the plethora of videos on YouTube and MANY other sites across the internet are not real? There's plenty of evidence that cops as a whole are becoming more and more aggressive. As I said, it's not entirely without justification, but it IS happening.

    "A normal traffic stop" where the occupant is being told to keep his hands visible and to get out of the vehicle? Sounds more like a case where the cops are already at a heightened alertness (why we're talking about such a scenario if the guy is a LAC, but whatever). So the possibility of him being yanked out of the car for not obeying their orders is much higher than a "normal traffic stop". Whether YOU would do so does not mean whoever has stopped him won't do so.
    I'm saying the "plethora" of videos on the internet are a mere tiny drop in the bucket of the literal millions of police/ citizen interactions that occur on daily/weekly etc. Basis.

    He may not be elderly, his exact age is unknown to me and is none of my business. It was a logically conclusion based on him already having a previous career and now needing knee replacements. Again none of my business.

    Finally, I agree that having to show hands would not be a "normal" traffic stop. But the advice still remains the same keep hands visible and no erratic movements. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Did you say "cane" or "fully automatic rifle with a grenade launcher" ... they look so similar ....

    I think the OP is terrified of his local PDs.
    Very true. Preferably held in the hands at all times. Really cuts down on those nasty gun grabs.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I'm saying the "plethora" of videos on the internet are a mere tiny drop in the bucket of the literal millions of police/ citizen interactions that occur on daily/weekly etc. Basis.

    He may not be elderly, his exact age is unknown to me and is none of my business. It was a logically conclusion based on him already having a previous career and now needing knee replacements. Again none of my business.

    Finally, I agree that having to show hands would not be a "normal" traffic stop. But the advice still remains the same keep hands visible and no erratic movements. Period.

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I'm saying the "plethora" of videos on the internet are a mere tiny drop in the bucket of the literal millions of police/ citizen interactions that occur on daily/weekly etc. Basis.

    He may not be elderly, his exact age is unknown to me and is none of my business. It was a logically conclusion based on him already having a previous career and now needing knee replacements. Again none of my business.

    Finally, I agree that having to show hands would not be a "normal" traffic stop. But the advice still remains the same keep hands visible and no erratic movements. Period.

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    Well; 60, shaved head, grey beard (but look young and hansom for may age) Not too worried about the "normal" stop, it is the MWG leaving a stop-n-rob that is concerning, especially with Bloomberg's "Mothers" being encouraged to make MWG calls when ever they see a gun.

    County issues plates, they said because my "handicap" is not permanent I do not qualify for a handicapped plate. I do have a blue renewable hang tag, maybe I should hang it from the inside mirror at first sign of getting pulled over, or hold it in my hand if ordered to put hands out the window.

    David-
    No shot taken but someone reported a suspicious vehicle parked behind the bank and 2 cops responded. They were walking around my (company decaled) truck, when the door opened and I stepped out, the closest cop started drawing. As a shooter I recognized the draw stroke and thanks to LEO security holsters I was able to get my hands raised before he completed his draw. Once things were straightened out and I was uncuffed he told me he was ready to "blow my damned head off".

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I had double knee replacements the end of Jan. and I just started driving again and walking without crutches just 2 days ago. My question is this, how do I respond to LEO if stopped and ordered out of the car keeping my hands up, as I can not get in or out without using my hands to help bend the knees enough to get through the door? Or if driving my truck (F350 4X4) I have to use the assist handle on the door frame to get in or out.

    How does one respond to LEO orders when they are physically unable to comply?
    Two suggestions:
    1. Don't do anything that may motivate a LEO to pull you over, and
    2. Prepare a note for your doctor's signature stating the facts, and keep it in your vehicle
    Anything other than that, and you're liable to find yourself in a world of unnecessary pain, and there are no guarantees even with #2. Pax...
    MOLON LABE
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    David-
    No shot taken but someone reported a suspicious vehicle parked behind the bank and 2 cops responded. They were walking around my (company decaled) truck, when the door opened and I stepped out, the closest cop started drawing. As a shooter I recognized the draw stroke and thanks to LEO security holsters I was able to get my hands raised before he completed his draw. Once things were straightened out and I was uncuffed he told me he was ready to "blow my damned head off".
    I think you need to practice your draw ...

    What did you get cuffed for? Living?

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    Regular Member Tacitus42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I had double knee replacements the end of Jan. and I just started driving again and walking without crutches just 2 days ago. My question is this, how do I respond to LEO if stopped and ordered out of the car keeping my hands up, as I can not get in or out without using my hands to help bend the knees enough to get through the door? Or if driving my truck (F350 4X4) I have to use the assist handle on the door frame to get in or out.

    Also when I start OCing again (I CC now as I could not defend against a snatch) one of the first things a cop tends to yell if responding to a MWG call is "GET ON THE GROUND/KNEES". I can barely bend the knees 90* and the leg muscles are still weak from getting cut and laying around for 3 months and there is no way in hell I can get on the ground or drop to my knees, and generally knee replacement folks can't ever get on their knees due to pain and restricted mobility.

    How does one respond to LEO orders when they are physically unable to comply?
    Since snatches never happen, and a person CC is more likely to be assaulted then an OC. Wouldn't it be prudent to OC at all times?
    "Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms." Josey Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Two suggestions:
    1. Don't do anything that may motivate a LEO to pull you over, and
    2. Prepare a note for your doctor's signature stating the facts, and keep it in your vehicle
    Anything other than that, and you're liable to find yourself in a world of unnecessary pain, and there are no guarantees even with #2. Pax...

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    "Sorry, can't do it, I'm fitted with store bought knees."
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    There is no excuse for this incident, none. The supposed weapon was never pointed at the officer, never! I am not sure where this has gone but last time I checked he still had his job.

    This is pisssssss poor training, police are being taught to disregard the safety of the public over the safety of the people, and unfortunately the courts are backing them up. This poop needs to be a election issue nationwide, but as long as people take the "it's not me, so I don't care" attitude it will continue.

    Things were different 20 years ago, the public just did not stay silent when things like Kent State took place. If Kent State were to happen again most people would not raise a eyebrow.

    In March the deputy was still on PAID leave, and the sheriff defended the deputies actions saying he would do the same thing. His suggested solution, the state should train the public, not train the police.

    Hopefully the voters train this sheriff come election...
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 05-15-2014 at 09:53 AM.
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