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Thread: Blue alcohol sign weight of law

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Blue alcohol sign weight of law

    Does anyone know the statute that creates the penalties for carrying a weapon unlicensed into an establishment with a blue weapons warning sign?

    Does anyone know the statute that creates the penalties for carrying a weapon, other than handgun under the authority of a carry license, into an establishment with a 51% alcohol license?

    I am unable to find a law that makes it illegal to carry a weapon, unlicensed, into an establishment that sells alcohol, be it a "true bar" or a gas station.

    I also believe that the TABC's red 51% sign does not comply with the law. Would anyone like to weigh in on that?

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    ...as to the TABC's sign for 51%...I don't find where the size/wording is legislated...it may just be an administrative decision by TABC...the PC46.035(b)(1)tells us that we mustn't go there and doesn't specify what notice we have to be given like 30.06 does...

    ...no comment on the "other weapons" part...but the TABC Guide may have details...I think it's online as a PDF...or they'll send you one...

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    ...PC46.02(c) gives the blue sign its teeth...legislature determines range of penalties that can be assessed a 3rd degree felony...

    http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publicat...es/weapons.pdf
    Last edited by sheepdog; 05-16-2014 at 09:01 PM.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdog View Post
    ...as to the TABC's sign for 51%...I don't find where the size/wording is legislated...it may just be an administrative decision by TABC...the PC46.035(b)(1)tells us that we mustn't go there and doesn't specify what notice we have to be given like 30.06 does...

    ...no comment on the "other weapons" part...but the TABC Guide may have details...I think it's online as a PDF...or they'll send you one...
    GC 411.204 lays out the requirements for the sign.

    (c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

    PC 46.035 states we can't go there while carrying a handgun under the authority of our carry license. But it does not address any other type of weapon, which is what the sign claims.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdog View Post
    ...PC46.02(c) gives the blue sign its teeth...legislature determines range of penalties that can be assessed a 3rd degree felony...
    But PC 46.02 does not address long guns, nor does it address non prohibited weapons like butterfly knives and the section that turns the crime into a felony is only a modifier. So if you violate PC 46.02 inside an establishment to sell alcohol, it becomes a felony. But again, only if you violate that part of the statute. It is still possible to legally carry. For example, long guns are not subject to PC 46.02 and there are a number of exceptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    GC 411.204 lays out the requirements for the sign.

    (c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

    PC 46.035 states we can't go there while carrying a handgun under the authority of our carry license. But it does not address any other type of weapon, which is what the sign claims.
    ...thanks for the 411.204 cite...which also says " ...prominently display at each entrance..."....30.06 should specify that part but doesn't...
    ...46.02 covers specific weapons...hmm...this is interesting...have you seen any case decisions where someone was arrested for carrying a weapon not listed in 46.02? again, TABC's GUIDE and rules may specify no weapons of any kind...don't remember...I do know that the license holder may carry in his own bar/restaurant...

    ...here it is...happy hunting!!! http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/oth...icersGuide.pdf
    Last edited by sheepdog; 05-16-2014 at 09:17 PM.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdog View Post
    ...thanks for the 411.204 cite...which also says " ...prominently display at each entrance..."....30.06 should specify that part but doesn't...
    ...46.02 covers specific weapons...hmm...this is interesting...have you seen any case decisions where someone was arrested for carrying a weapon not listed in 46.02? again, TABC's GUIDE and rules may specify no weapons of any kind...don't remember...I do know that the license holder may carry in his own bar/restaurant...

    ...here it is...happy hunting!!! http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/oth...icersGuide.pdf
    Just read the PDF, thanks for the link. There's nothing in there. I've seen reports from people who said they have contacted the TABC and they said there weren't any penalties for the acts I have described previously. I have searched the internet up and down, haven't be able to find anything. I've concluding that no such law exists.

    My findings:

    • The blue sign does not carry weight of law, and is misinformation in it's current form. The sign needs to be revised to read "unlawful possession."
    • The red sign does not appear to conform with the law. However, the law requiring the sign does not have the same "exact wording" verbiage as the 30.06 sign. The law should be amended to reflect the 30.06 law.
    • TABC needs to revise the sign to conform with state law.
    • No law prohibits the lawful carrying of weapons in an establishment with a "blue license."
    • No law prohibits the lawful carrying of weapons in an establishment with a "red license" other than license holders carrying under the authority of their license.
    • No law prohibits the carry of weapons while intoxicated, other than for license holders carrying under the authority of their license.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I hate to spread unsubstantiated information but I don't have a cite on me at the moment, maybe you could check out this angle... But it's my understanding that the business is required by the TABC to post this sign and that the business is punishable for offenses. For instance, if they allow you to carry on the premises, the business could be punished by the TABC, such as with a license revocation, but you as the carrier are not punishable. Can anyone verify if this is the case?

    Edit: Check page 34 of this document: http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/oth...icersGuide.pdf
    "Firearms on Licensed Premises
    [Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) AB Code]
    The Commission shall cancel a retail alcoholic beverage
    permit or license if it is found, after notice and hearing, that
    the permittee or licensee knowingly allowed a person to
    possess a firearm in a building on the licensed premises.
    (See “Exceptions” below for instances when a person may
    carry a firearm on the
    premises.)"

    Edit again:
    It later states "Each off - premise retailer and other on - premise retail licensees and permittees not listed in the above paragraph are required to display a BLUE sign in a prominent place on the premises which is learly visible to the public giving notice that it is unlawful for a person to carry a weapon on the premises unless the weapon is a licensed concealed handgun."
    But, I don't know a law that makes this true.

    Edit again: just realized sheepdog linked the same document! Sorry Sheepdog!

    Edit again:
    So this is my understanding... The sign is a lie, and you are not breaking the law by carrying, but the TABC blackmails all licensed sellers into making you leave.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 05-17-2014 at 12:51 AM.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I hate to spread unsubstantiated information but I don't have a cite on me at the moment, maybe you could check out this angle... But it's my understanding that the business is required by the TABC to post this sign and that the business is punishable for offenses. For instance, if they allow you to carry on the premises, the business could be punished by the TABC, such as with a license revocation, but you as the carrier are not punishable. Can anyone verify if this is the case?
    I do believe that is the case, but only if the weapon is carried illegally.

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Edit again:
    It later states "Each off - premise retailer and other on - premise retail licensees and permittees not listed in the above paragraph are required to display a BLUE sign in a prominent place on the premises which is learly visible to the public giving notice that it is unlawful for a person to carry a weapon on the premises unless the weapon is a licensed concealed handgun."
    But, I don't know a law that makes this true.

    Edit again: just realized sheepdog linked the same document! Sorry Sheepdog!

    Edit again:
    So this is my understanding... The sign is a lie, and you are not breaking the law by carrying, but the TABC blackmails all licensed sellers into making you leave.
    I now believe the blue sign is a lie, but to be fair to TABC it is a lie required by law. The red sign, however, needs to be changed as it does not conform with the law requiring it.

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