You guys have to stop open carying your rifles in places of business.

SA-TX · Jun 11, 2014

stealthyeliminator said:
You've advocated for the cease of LGOC consistently yet you failed to include that in any of your steps. I see that as a false representation of your plan... Leaving out the bad or controversial parts, though they are key and the very subject of this thread and even the very point of our disagreement.

edited wrong post

That's because my plan isn't dependent on LGOCing continuing or ceasing. I believe we'll be able to convince the Legislature easier without LGOC activity and the controversy it generates but the plan is the same either way. (To be clear by "cease" I mean voluntarily not outlawing or licensing LGOC.) I assume you believe the opposite (that LGOC will help members see the light). I think this is a matter of opinion because we can't yet prove it either way. During the 2015 session we may get proof (members pass or do not pass an OC bill and are transparent about the reasons) or we may not (they pass or don't pass a bill but it isn't clear why).

I'll add this additional data point to the group of out-of-staters concerned about Texas LGOCers: a gun owner, pro-2A colleague from Charlotte asked me THIS MORNING, without any prior gun talk, "what's going on with those open carry idiots with ARs? They are giving all gun owners a bad name and hurting the cause not helping it." That's 100% true and happened as we drove from the airport to our destination.

SA-TX

WalkingWolf · Jun 12, 2014

Just another selfish moron more concerned with their status quo than liberty. Yea we even have those idiots in NC. Plus a few NRA nutcases and GRNC statists. GRNC, ILRA, TSRA, NRA, all the same. He probably applauded the screwing the citizens of Illinois got from statists demanding licensed carry and no OC.

So what?

SA-TX · Jun 12, 2014

WalkingWolf said:
Just another selfish moron more concerned with their status quo than liberty. Yea we even have those idiots in NC. Plus a few NRA nutcases and GRNC statists. GRNC, ILRA, TSRA, NRA, all the same. He probably applauded the screwing the citizens of Illinois got from statists demanding licensed carry and no OC.

So what?

As I said, just a data point. The real question is are you making more enemies than friends with the strategy?

As for other pro-2A groups, I refer you to Rule 12 of this forum.

As mentioned in my previous post, "car carry" is a great example of what TSRA accomplished in Texas over severs sessions. It isn't constitutional carry (hopefully you now agree) but the average Texan can now carry a gun in their car without a license. It isn't perfect, but it isn't progress. Incrementalism works.

SA-TX

stealthyeliminator · Jun 12, 2014

SA-TX said:
That's because my plan isn't dependent on LGOCing continuing or ceasing. I believe we'll be able to convince the Legislature easier without LGOC activity and the controversy it generates but the plan is the same either way. (To be clear by "cease" I mean voluntarily not outlawing or licensing LGOC.) I assume you believe the opposite (that LGOC will help members see the light). I think this is a matter of opinion because we can't yet prove it either way. During the 2015 session we may get proof (members pass or do not pass an OC bill and are transparent about the reasons) or we may not (they pass or don't pass a bill but it isn't clear why).

I'll add this additional data point to the group of out-of-staters concerned about Texas LGOCers: a gun owner, pro-2A colleague from Charlotte asked me THIS MORNING, without any prior gun talk, "what's going on with those open carry idiots with ARs? They are giving all gun owners a bad name and hurting the cause not helping it." That's 100% true and happened as we drove from the airport to our destination.

SA-TX

Then to the OP assertion that 'you guys have to stop open carrying rifles in places of business,' asserting that it's necessary, you would disagree?

In your second post do you mean that what he said is 100% true, or that it is 100% true that he said it? What you responded with is what I'm more interested to hear.

SA-TX · Jun 12, 2014

stealthyeliminator said:
Then to the OP assertion that 'you guys have to stop open carrying rifles in places of business,' asserting that it's necessary, you would disagree?

In your second post do you mean that what he said is 100% true, or that it is 100% true that he said it? What you responded with is what I'm more interested to hear.

Yes I disagree with the OP. I'm glad LGOC is legal and it was a good tactic for the "raise awareness among politicians" phase but I believe it isn't the best tool for the "get a bill passed" phase.

That's what he said unsolicited. I said "I agree. This isn't helpful to getting OC of handguns passed in Texas."

SA-TX

OC for ME · Jun 12, 2014

If all "gun owners" were to push back against the calls to not LGOC because LGOC might harm the "cause" then the legislature would have to choose between gun owners and antis. But, the legislature sees antis, gun owners who are anti LGOC, and the LGOCers. LGOCers were sunk as soon as OCT tossed them under the bus.

Gun owners who are anti LGOC are doing the work of the antis. Relying on the media to be objective is a fool errand and the gun owners who are anti LGOC are fools.

A unified front seems to be coming from gun owners beyond the borders of the Lone Start State.

WalkingWolf · Jun 12, 2014

SA-TX said:
As I said, just a data point. The real question is are you making more enemies than friends with the strategy?

As for other pro-2A groups, I refer you to Rule 12 of this forum.

As mentioned in my previous post, "car carry" is a great example of what TSRA accomplished in Texas over severs sessions. It isn't constitutional carry (hopefully you now agree) but the average Texan can now carry a gun in their car without a license. It isn't perfect, but it isn't progress. Incrementalism works.

SA-TX

The point is that NRA, ILRA, GRNC, TSRA are alienating the gun public that are true second amendment activists, and are libertarians. Those groups are no different then the antis, they are anti liberty. They are pro money, you have admitted that you took a loss of revenue, so you pushing, almost demanding LICENSED carry which would put more money in your pocket. By your own posts, you claim to have lost money when retraining was removed.

Same ole story, follow the money.

WalkingWolf · Jun 12, 2014

OC for ME said:
If all "gun owners" were to push back against the calls to not LGOC because LGOC might harm the "cause" then the legislature would have to choose between gun owners and antis. But, the legislature sees antis, gun owners who are anti LGOC, and the LGOCers. LGOCers were sunk as soon as OCT tossed them under the bus.

Gun owners who are anti LGOC are doing the work of the antis. Relying on the media to be objective is a fool errand and the gun owners who are anti LGOC are fools.

A unified front seems to be coming from gun owners beyond the borders of the Lone Start State.

+1 These anti liberty 'gun owners' are why we have gun control in the first place.

solus · Jun 12, 2014

and not one of you have commented on the dallas observers piece:

quote Open Carry Has a Good Shot of Passing in Texas, If Those AK-Toting Demonstrators Don't Screw it Up

At the GOP convention in Fort Worth last weekend, as rifle-toting protesters stood outside decrying their guns' exclusion from the convention hall, three thirtysomething men, two brothers and a cousin, approached Texas State Rifle Association lobbyist Alice Tripp. Their pitch -- that Texans should have the right to openly carry handguns -- was identical to the one being shouted at the TV cameras outside. The difference was, this trio had their weapons holstered. Also, their weapons were carrots.

Open carrot -- get it?

Yes, that pun is awful, but that's not the point.

"They had a whole presentation that the three of them would go through that was just like standup," Tripp says. "That was the way it went. Their ideas are the same. Their intentions are the same as the guys that are doing demonstrations with long guns, but they were disarming."

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfa...crew_it_up.php

simple, low key, and elegant and yet quite effective since the three got into the hall to pitch their sphil...

ipse

now let me correct a misrepresentation in a previous post...i stated the three got to a legislator, they got to the lobbyist.

WalkingWolf · Jun 12, 2014

Solus, with all due respect, that is the exact same garbage that screwed Illinios citizens out of constitutional carry. The P4P industry scared them to go along with a agenda, that literally cost them hundreds of dollars and massive loopholes to get a permit. NOW the remarks that are being made in Texas against libertarians fighting fo rights is exactly the same.

Texans listen to those statists they will get exactly what Illinois citizens got. I can't get over nobody learned their lesson from that debacle.

canvasbck · Jun 12, 2014

WalkingWolf said:
The point is that NRA, ILRA, GRNC, TSRA are alienating the gun public that are true second amendment activists, and are libertarians. Those groups are no different then the antis, they are anti liberty. They are pro money, you have admitted that you took a loss of revenue, so you pushing, almost demanding LICENSED carry which would put more money in your pocket. By your own posts, you claim to have lost money when retraining was removed.

Same ole story, follow the money.

You claim that those organizations are alienating the gun public that are "true" 2a activists. Then you turn around and say that those groups are no different than the anti's, call them anti liberty and pro money. Thus taking a position that would alienate those organizations (and, by extension their 5+ million members). Watch the statements that The Emperor made in regards to his frustration over not getting gun control legislation passed. He blamed it on lawmakers being "afraid of the NRA". They may indeed have a vested interest in licensing, it's debatable, but they are NOT our enemies!! Who's alienating who??

This circular firing squad is utterly rediculous. How can we expect to defeat a band of deranged moms funded by a billionaire when we can't stop attacking those who are also opposed to the moms and their billionaire.

I'll let SA-TX address the parts where you completely twisted his statements to mean the opposite of what he's been saying (IMO).

WalkingWolf · Jun 12, 2014

canvasbck said:
You claim that those organizations are alienating the gun public that are "true" 2a activists. Then you turn around and say that those groups are no different than the anti's, call them anti liberty and pro money. Thus taking a position that would alienate those organizations (and, by extension their 5+ million members). Watch the statements that The Emperor made in regards to his frustration over not getting gun control legislation passed. He blamed it on lawmakers being "afraid of the NRA". They may indeed have a vested interest in licensing, it's debatable, but they are NOT our enemies!! Who's alienating who??

This circular firing squad is utterly rediculous. How can we expect to defeat a band of deranged moms funded by a billionaire when we can't stop attacking those who are also opposed to the moms and their billionaire.

I'll let SA-TX address the parts where you completely twisted his statements to mean the opposite of what he's been saying (IMO).

5+ million members? Hmmmmm~~how many people voted for Obama? Does large numbers of statists change that they are statists?

NRA and the other organization that follow their pay for privilege scheme are clearly anti liberty and pro money. The NRA BRAGS about the money, YOU admit it is about the money claiming they are so powerful. PT Barnum says....

AND you do not defeat MDA by joining them!

canvasbck · Jun 12, 2014

WalkingWolf said:
5+ million members? Hmmmmm~~how many people voted for Obama? Does large numbers of statists change that they are statists?

NRA and the other organization that follow their pay for privilege scheme are clearly anti liberty and pro money. The NRA BRAGS about the money, YOU admit it is about the money claiming they are so powerful. PT Barnum says....

AND you do not defeat MDA by joining them!

Do you not at least find it ironic that in the post I originaly quoted from you, you claim that those organizations are alienating folks on our side, then your next sentence starts alienating those organizations?

WalkingWolf · Jun 12, 2014

canvasbck said:
Do you not at least find it ironic that in the post I originaly quoted from you, you claim that those organizations are alienating folks on our side, then your next sentence starts alienating those organizations?

Those organizations NEED to be stood up to, the very way the CEO of OCT did. I don't give a dog's poop whether they feel alienated by citizens, until they serve all gun owners and the 2nd amendment they deserve no respect. And what are people supposed to do kiss their backside while bending over for them because they have 5+ members. Are you denying that Obama has more followers than the NRA has members? Does that give statism credibility?

They want MY respect the need to damn well earn it, and they have not come even close. They created gun control, and they perpetuate gun control.

OC for ME · Jun 12, 2014

I have no idea how many folks on these pages have claimed that they let their NRA membership lapse due directly to the NRA's efforts that torpedoed unlicensed carry in their state. They could be lying or there is something there. I canceled my membership, convinced family members and some friends to cancel theirs once I presented them with the facts regarding the NRA in my home state and MO. I am confident that i am not alone in this regard.

I know the NRA has not been very diligent in advancing unlicensed carry in MO, or my home state, and there is evidence that they hindered the effort here in MO.

The NRA is not about liberty, the NRA is about the NRA. They are the big dog on the block in DC and state capitals without a doubt, it is unfortunate that they do not work as hard as they say they work to restore liberty for all citizens.

canvasbck · Jun 12, 2014

WalkingWolf said:
Those organizations NEED to be stood up to, the very way the CEO of OCT did. I don't give a dog's poop whether they feel alienated by citizens, until they serve all gun owners and the 2nd amendment they deserve no respect. And what are people supposed to do kiss their backside while bending over for them because they have 5+ members. Are you denying that Obama has more followers than the NRA has members? Does that give statism credibility?

They want MY respect the need to damn well earn it, and they have not come even close. They created gun control, and they perpetuate gun control.

Thank you

canvasbck · Jun 12, 2014

OC for ME said:
I have no idea how many folks on these pages have claimed that they let their NRA membership lapse due directly to the NRA's efforts that torpedoed unlicensed carry in their state. They could be lying or there is something there. I canceled my membership, convinced family members and some friends to cancel theirs once I presented them with the facts regarding the NRA in my home state and MO. I am confident that i am not alone in this regard.

I know the NRA has not been very diligent in advancing unlicensed carry in MO, or my home state, and there is evidence that they hindered the effort here in MO.

The NRA is not about liberty, the NRA is about the NRA. They are the big dog on the block in DC and state capitals without a doubt, it is unfortunate that they do not work as hard as they say they work to restore liberty for all citizens.

I can not disagree with a single word that you have said. But alienating them (as some here want to do) while trying to get legislation passed is just plain foolish.

WalkingWolf · Jun 12, 2014

canvasbck said:
I can not disagree with a single word that you have said. But alienating them (as some here want to do) while trying to get legislation passed is just plain foolish.

And following them worked so well in Illinois for getting legislation passed. 300 dollars in permit fees, 16 hours of training, not allowed to carry on public transportation, NO OC. Ohhhh yea keeping NRA from passing legislation is exactly what the citizens of Texas need to do, if not they will get screwed just like the citizens in Illinois did.

OC for Me lives right next door to Illinois, he probably knows better than the rest of us how caustic the NRA can be.

canvasbck · Jun 12, 2014

WalkingWolf said:
And following them worked so well in Illinois for getting legislation passed. 300 dollars in permit fees, 16 hours of training, not allowed to carry on public transportation, NO OC. Ohhhh yea keeping NRA from passing legislation is exactly what the citizens of Texas need to do, if not they will get screwed just like the citizens in Illinois did.

OC for Me lives right next door to Illinois, he probably knows better than the rest of us how caustic the NRA can be.

1. Texas is not Illinois. Apologies to those who live there, but that state is run by Chicago, arguably the most corrupt city in the nation with a history of mayors hostile to guns. In Texas, the rural areas still have a voice (it's getting smaller, but still exists) and our large cities are not as liberal/marxist as Chicago. That is Texas today, I'm afraid we are headed towards a similar situation as Illinois and New York where a few liberal cities control the state.

2. Any gun legislation introduced in the State of Texas that is not backed by TSRA/NRA is DOA. Period, end of story.

3. You will not get the backing of those, or any, organization with your middle finger in their face.

OC for ME · Jun 12, 2014

canvasbck said:
I can not disagree with a single word that you have said. But alienating them (as some here want to do) while trying to get legislation passed is just plain foolish.

Don't know about the Ill-annoy ILA rep, or any other ILA reps around the country, but it is typically just one dude running the halls of state capitals who torpedoes any move to restore unlicensed carry in any given state. So, as far as I am concerned, alienating the "NRA" is not even on my radar. They can take a long hike off a short pier.

You guys have to stop open carying your rifles in places of business.

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