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Thread: War is not moral

  1. #1
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    War is not moral

    Since Citizen doesn't seem to be around to post this this year. I will.

    One of the biggest humps to return this country to liberty, is not speaking out against the constant unconstitutional wars the politicians send our families of to die and suffer in.

    Here's a great clip Citizen brought up before ......

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...07E22E7E6FE221

    FUQ...James Garner line in a movie.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Name an unconstitutional war America has engaged in recently ........

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    Regular Member hhofent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NosePicker View Post
    Name an unconstitutional war America has engaged in recently ........
    Libya

    Sent from an unspecified mobile phone using unspecified software.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    Libya
    I tend to agree. However, I thought the president had the authority to use military force for a short amount of time without congressional approval ?

    Personally I think the president should have gone to congress and received approval.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NosePicker View Post
    I tend to agree. However, I thought the president had the authority to use military force for a short amount of time without congressional approval ?

    Personally I think the president should have gone to congress and received approval.
    At that point you start getting into how the "war powers" have been distorted to increase the power of the presidency.

    But I generally agree that war should only be fought in defense, either in response to an attack, or as a reaction to imminent (and credible) assault; acting as a police nation is best left for movies starring wooden puppets.

    BTW: Where is Citizen? I haven't seen him around for a month or two now. Hope he's alright.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 05-25-2014 at 07:06 PM.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    Libya

    Sent from an unspecified mobile phone using unspecified software.
    1. do you have a cite for your guess?

    2. i am of the belief US armed forces supported a UN military action in that country in 2011.

    the term recent, within the last year is relative to your guess.

    thanks for playing jeopardy.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 05-25-2014 at 07:12 PM.
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    Regular Member hhofent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    1. do you have a cite for your guess?

    2. i am of the belief US armed forces supported a UN military action in that country in 2011.

    the term recent, within the last year is relative to your guess.

    thanks for playing jeopardy.

    ipse
    I think this cite sums it up in VPOTUS own words.
    http://www.cato.org/publications/com...constitutional

    Sent from an unspecified mobile phone using unspecified software.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NosePicker View Post
    Name an unconstitutional war America has engaged in recently ........
    War of Independence ! No constitution written yet!

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    I think this cite sums it up in VPOTUS own words.
    http://www.cato.org/publications/com...constitutional

    Sent from an unspecified mobile phone using unspecified software.
    as mentioned...recent what was stated by the OP in their initial post...

    however the cato article flatly states: quote This article appeared on The Daily Caller on March 22, 2011 unquote.

    2011 misses my conception of 'recent'.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NosePicker View Post
    Name an unconstitutional war America has engaged in recently ........
    All of them since WWII.

    The only justified war was the War for independence.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    [ ... ] BTW: Where is Citizen? I haven't seen him around for a month or two now. Hope he's alright.
    He is absent of his own accord. His last post is #2041954 on 06 March
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-25-2014 at 10:53 PM.
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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    All of them since WWII.

    The only justified war was the War for independence.
    The justification for Korea was simply this; If President Truman had not authorized General MacArthur to use U.S. forces to enforce the United Nations' declaration to North Korea, it would have resulted in the same situation (League of Nations) which led us into WWII. The only thing I fault President Truman on was that he refused to allow MacArthur to use sufficient force to push the Chinese back out of Korea when they entered on the side of North Korea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    All of them since WWII.

    The only justified war was the War for independence.
    Ok, how was the war in Afghanistan unconstitutional ? What section of the constitutional was violated ?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    mor·al
    adjective \ˈmȯr-əl, ˈmär-\

    : concerning or relating to what is right and wrong in human behavior

    : based on what you think is right and good

    : considered right and good by most people : agreeing with a standard of right behavior
    un·con·sti·tu·tion·al
    adjective \ˌən-ˌkän(t)-stə-ˈtü-shnəl, -ˈtyü-, -shə-nəl\

    : not allowed by the constitution of a country or government : not constitutional
    Which is it we're posed ta be talkin bout? The title don't seem like it matches the op too much.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  15. #15
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Which is it we're posed ta be talkin bout? The title don't seem like it matches the op too much.
    Either Or. They both seem to fit for most wars.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  16. #16
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    The justification for Korea was simply this; If President Truman had not authorized General MacArthur to use U.S. forces to enforce the United Nations' declaration to North Korea, it would have resulted in the same situation (League of Nations) which led us into WWII. The only thing I fault President Truman on was that he refused to allow MacArthur to use sufficient force to push the Chinese back out of Korea when they entered on the side of North Korea.
    IF IF IF...not a justification. Not justified any more than If I don't kill my neighbor who looks like he might attack me someday, or this "may" happen.

    Also did congress declare the war?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  17. #17
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NosePicker View Post
    Ok, how was the war in Afghanistan unconstitutional ? What section of the constitutional was violated ?

    What section in the constitution allowed it?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  18. #18
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    What section in the constitution allowed it?
    All war powers rest with congress, it's right in there.
    To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
    Congress did not say no to any war.....so, they were all "authorized" by the constitution.

    The issue is not whether the war is good/bad, right/wrong, moral/immoral. The issue is and always has been, once "in it" we must be in it to win it.

    When the full might of the military is focused on winning, casualties are low. 91 Gulf war, what, 200+ killed, a third by friendly fire, and the war was over and done in ~100 hours.

    Was that war moral? Was it just? What did matter to us if Kuwait remained in Iraqi hands? Especially now that we are exporting oil. Nope the war was not moral, it was not just, we should have let those folks over there fix their own problems. But we did go to war over there.

    A general dislike for government waging war it understandable. I certainly don't like our country going to war. I did not know anyone, while I was in, that "wanted" to go to war whether it was "authorized" properly, or improperly. The propriety of the war was the last thing on my mind.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    All war powers rest with congress, it's right in there.Congress did not say no to any war.....so, they were all "authorized" by the constitution.

    The issue is not whether the war is good/bad, right/wrong, moral/immoral. The issue is and always has been, once "in it" we must be in it to win it.

    When the full might of the military is focused on winning, casualties are low. 91 Gulf war, what, 200+ killed, a third by friendly fire, and the war was over and done in ~100 hours.

    Was that war moral? Was it just? What did matter to us if Kuwait remained in Iraqi hands? Especially now that we are exporting oil. Nope the war was not moral, it was not just, we should have let those folks over there fix their own problems. But we did go to war over there.

    A general dislike for government waging war it understandable. I certainly don't like our country going to war. I did not know anyone, while I was in, that "wanted" to go to war whether it was "authorized" properly, or improperly. The propriety of the war was the last thing on my mind.
    Actually it says the war must be declared by congress, it doesn't allow it just because they don't say anything.

    There is a major question of right and wrong or good and bad, immoral or moral. If we are wrong get the F out, winning just because you are in it is a silly reason.

    Foreign involvement isn't constitutional and actually warned against by the founders.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    [ ... ]Foreign involvement isn't constitutional and actually warned against by the founders.
    Conservatism is a three-legged stool of social, fiscal and foreign policy. Cut off any one and it's just another fecal bolus walking.

    Only The Constitution Parrty represents America's conservative Country Class against the progressive Ruling Party of democrats, republicans and libertarians, demotic repugnant and lying. Progressivism is the political bowel movement (universal, necessary, certain) to make-things-better and leave US to suffer the unintended consequences. God Bless US Bitter Clingers

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/v...storation-act/
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-29-2014 at 07:03 AM.
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  21. #21
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    IF IF IF...not a justification. Not justified any more than If I don't kill my neighbor who looks like he might attack me someday, or this "may" happen.

    Also did congress declare the war?
    Since North Korea committed an act of aggression as defined by the United Nations' charter, since the United States was, ill-advisedly in my opinion, signatory to that charter, it was within the powers granted to the President to authorize the use of military force in support of the United Nations. In that particular case, Congress did not have to declare war.

    I will say that the actions and words of American politicians led North Korea into believing they could commit aggression and get away with it.

    The original statement was "War is not moral". Unprovoked aggression, whether by nations or by individuals, is not moral. Self-defense or defense of others, again whether by nations or by individuals, is quite possibly the very height of morality.
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    Y'all are presuming, modus ponens, some commonly understood meaning of moral/morality. That does not exist on this forum or in public rhetoric, but only in communities with a common language/literature - like faith communities.

    Maybe later I'll crib Popper's Open Society and Its Enemies on moral codes.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Since North Korea committed an act of aggression as defined by the United Nations' charter, since the United States was, ill-advisedly in my opinion, signatory to that charter, it was within the powers granted to the President to authorize the use of military force in support of the United Nations. In that particular case, Congress did not have to declare war.

    I will say that the actions and words of American politicians led North Korea into believing they could commit aggression and get away with it.

    The original statement was "War is not moral". Unprovoked aggression, whether by nations or by individuals, is not moral. Self-defense or defense of others, again whether by nations or by individuals, is quite possibly the very height of morality.
    Other documents like being part of UN, does not trump the constitution. The constitution specifically spells out who declares war.

    War is not moral was the title of the video.

    Self defense is moral, involving ourselves in the disputes of foreigners is not.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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