Thoughts on helping to normalize open carry

SA-TX said:

I hope OCT's plan - whatever it is - does work. If it doesn't I want licensed OC. You are still confusing whether or not I support constutional carry - I do - with supporting certain tactics which, in my opinion, don't engender the support we'll need in the Legislature. A fact none us can deny is that we'll if anything works within 1 year (at the conclusion of the '15 legislative session. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree.

SA-TX

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It is clear you want licensed OC, you have made it clear, even though it will leave many Texans without the ability to defend themselves. Way to go there!

BTW the ones with the license already can defend themselves with a firearm, they do not need open carry to carry. That will not be true for the unlicensed and those who are not old enough for a CHL. I am sure they thank you for your concern for their safety.

WalkingWolf said:

It is clear you want licensed OC, you have made it clear, even though it will leave many Texans without the ability to defend themselves. Way to go there!

BTW the ones with the license already can defend themselves with a firearm, they do not need open carry to carry. That will not be true for the unlicensed and those who are not old enough for a CHL. I am sure they thank you for your concern for their safety.

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I'll try just one more time - Texas has NEVER licensed long-gun carry and it may not even be able to do so. Even if your interpretation of the Texas Constitution is right, why would we make that change? Licenses have been used to change bans into lawful carry for some. In 1995 Texans went from virtually no public carry of handguns to legal carry by some. That is an increase in privileges (yes, it is a right that was unlawfully taken but that is a different debate). If we get licensed OC, we will go from virtual zero public OC of handguns to lawful carry openly by some. This is an improvement.

Your assertion is that licensed OC somehow NECESSARILY means licensing OC of long arms. I strongly disagree with that. If anything injudicious open carry of long guns causes that type of crackdown. See the City of Arlington as a case in point.

My opinion of the odds of that a bill to license long gun carry would pass and become law in this state is zero. Please show me any support for such a proposition. I truly believe you are conflating two different things. We are hoping to license OC only as a temporary stop on the road to true freedom (where handgun carry of all types is unrestricted) not to regress with long arms. Although we are admittedly trying to reverse 130 years of bad handgun law, you are proposing a reversal of 180 years plus. Not going to happen.

SA-TX

SA-TX said:

I'll try just one more time - Texas has NEVER licensed long-gun carry and it may not even be able to do so. Even if your interpretation of the Texas Constitution is right, why would we make that change? Licenses have been used to change bans into lawful carry for some. In 1995 Texans went from virtually no public carry of handguns to legal carry by some. That is an increase in privileges (yes, it is a right that was unlawfully taken but that is a different debate). If we get licensed OC, we will go from virtual zero public OC of handguns to lawful carry openly by some. This is an improvement.

Your assertion is that licensed OC somehow NECESSARILY means licensing OC of long arms. I strongly disagree with that. If anything injudicious open carry of long guns causes that type of crackdown. See the City of Arlington as a case in point.

My opinion of the odds of that a bill to license long gun carry would pass and become law in this state is zero. Please show me any support for such a proposition. I truly believe you are conflating two different things. We are hoping to license OC only as a temporary stop on the road to true freedom (where handgun carry of all types is unrestricted) not to regress with long arms. Although we are admittedly trying to reverse 130 years of bad handgun law, you are proposing a reversal of 180 years plus. Not going to happen.

SA-TX

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I'll say this one more time, you are proposing a law to license open carry, because the legislature is just so upset of long gun open carry. There is absolutely no reason to believe they will leave unlicensed open carry of long guns intact. NOW your claiming that the people have no control over the legislature, that you have no control, yet you swear it will not pass. Bull Hockey!

This whole conversation has been about the lies surrounding open carry of a long gun! The legislature is talking because open carry of a long gun! They are talking about licensed open carry, according to you, because they find long gun open carry unacceptable! Smoke and Mirrors, and promises from a lobbyist are the same as promisses from a politician!

I did not have sex with that woman!

You can keep your doctor!

You healthcare prices will go down!

We are not spying on you!

AND now give us licensed OC and we will not screw you!

Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

WalkingWolf said:

I'll say this one more time, you are proposing a law to license open carry, because the legislature is just so upset of long gun open carry. There is absolutely no reason to believe they will leave unlicensed open carry of long guns intact. NOW your claiming that the people have no control over the legislature, that you have no control, yet you swear it will not pass. Bull Hockey!

This whole conversation has been about the lies surrounding open carry of a long gun! The legislature is talking because open carry of a long gun! They are talking about licensed open carry, according to you, because they find long gun open carry unacceptable! Smoke and Mirrors, and promises from a lobbyist are the same as promisses from a politician!

I did not have sex with that woman!

You can keep your doctor!

You healthcare prices will go down!

We are not spying on you!

AND now give us licensed OC and we will not screw you!

Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

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Who is proposing a law that licenses open carry rather that OC of a handgun? Does the OCT bill do that? I doubt it. Did the OC bills introduced in the last two sessions do that? No they dealt with handguns.

I never said they (the legislature) find long gun carry unacceptable. Are they talking because awareness of Texas's overly restrictive handgun laws have resulted in long gun carry protests? Yes but I have seen zero indication that the outcome will be to restrict long gun OC rather than fix handgun OC.

The committee invited Alice Trip of TSRA and an NRA lobbyist to testify. Both talked about allowing CHLers to open carry handguns.

You also seem to assume that supporters of licensed OC of handguns would be willing to accept licensing of long arms to get it. I wouldn't and I suspect you won't be able to find many people would would agree to such a condition.

No one can say with certainty right now what type of bill the legislature may develop. Of course it is possible that some bill restricting long gun OC in exchange for handgun OC would be drafted. However, if so I will oppose it and I think my view will be the prevailing one. That said, it is very unlikely. OCT doesn't want that. Come and Take It Texas doesn't. Neither does TSRA. Legislation in the coming session regarding OC will, in my opinion, focus on OC of handguns and perhaps fixing DC so it isn't used as a bogus charge against lawful gun carriers of all varieties. I don't trust the politicians anymore than you do so I'll be watching carefully. I ask you to do the same. I'll join you in opposition if such a hybrid bill appears. Will you join me in supporting a licensed handgun OC bill that doesn't change long guns?

SA-TX

HPmatt said:

Patrick was questioning Dewhurst and House Lship wisdom in why were R 's giving Hse cmte chmships to Dems - elections have consequences.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

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Patrick will be better than Dew in that regard and I don't expect there to be any D chairman in the Senate but it remains to be seen if this will change Straus's policies.

Hate to break it to you body, but TSRA and especially Charles Cotton, has been very hostile towards OC.

Jack House said:

Hate to break it to you body, but TSRA and especially Charles Cotton, has been very hostile towards OC.

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I'm aware of their views both past and present. I disagree with "very hostile" but I do agree it wasn't a high priority. That has changed. TSRA has announced that it will work with the Legislature on OC this session. Alice Tripp, their lobbyist testified in favor of the concept (concept because there are no drafted bills yet) as did the NRA lobbyist.

SA-TX

SA-TX said:

Who is proposing a law that licenses open carry rather that OC of a handgun? Does the OCT bill do that? I doubt it. Did the OC bills introduced in the last two sessions do that? No they dealt with handguns.


SA-TX

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It looks to me very much as though you and WW are talking at cross purposes here. I'll try to explain what I am seeing going on here. Maybe I am totally off base; if so I apologize in advance.

I don't believe WW is claiming that the legislature is planning to license open carry of a long gun. When he says "Licensing OC" he is talking about handguns. He is complaining about proposals to license the OC of handguns.

He is imagining that right now, in Texas, a choice exists between Licensed OC of a handgun and completely unrestricted OC of handguns. If such were true, you and I would both jump on the latter option, and he'd be right to condemn support of licensed OC.

You, on the other hand, are imagining a choice between NO OC of a handgun and licensed OC of a handgun. You quite properly picked what you did given the choice you believe you have right here and now.

Unfortunately, WW imagines that completely unrestricted OC of a handgun is a realistic choice under today's circumstances. If he were right, he'd have cause to complain about your choice. But he isn't and won't listen to your attempts to explain that fact, so he condemns you for supporting licensed OC.

You, for whatever reason, think he is talking about long guns here, and you seem think he is accusing you of supporting licensed OC of rifles. He isn't. I don't believe he ever said "rifle" or "long gun," (certainly not in his last couple of posts), he has said "Licensed OC" a lot. You've merely read "long gun" into what he has been saying. And of course if he were talking about long guns, it would be absurd. But he is not, and it therefore isn't.

What WW has been saying is problematic enough without it being misconstrued into something even more off base.

SteveInCO said:

It looks to me very much as though you and WW are talking at cross purposes here. I'll try to explain what I am seeing going on here. Maybe I am totally off base; if so I apologize in advance.

I don't believe WW is claiming that the legislature is planning to license open carry of a long gun. When he says "Licensing OC" he is talking about handguns. He is complaining about proposals to license the OC of handguns.

He is imagining that right now, in Texas, a choice exists between Licensed OC of a handgun and completely unrestricted OC of handguns. If such were true, you and I would both jump on the latter option, and he'd be right to condemn support of licensed OC.

You, on the other hand, are imagining a choice between NO OC of a handgun and licensed OC of a handgun. You quite properly picked what you did given the choice you believe you have right here and now.

Unfortunately, WW imagines that completely unrestricted OC of a handgun is a realistic choice under today's circumstances. If he were right, he'd have cause to complain about your choice. But he isn't and won't listen to your attempts to explain that fact, so he condemns you for supporting licensed OC.

You, for whatever reason, think he is talking about long guns here, and you seem think he is accusing you of supporting licensed OC of rifles. He isn't. I don't believe he ever said "rifle" or "long gun," (certainly not in his last couple of posts), he has said "Licensed OC" a lot. You've merely read "long gun" into what he has been saying. And of course if he were talking about long guns, it would be absurd. But he is not, and it therefore isn't.

What WW has been saying is problematic enough without it being misconstrued into something even more off base.

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How is a person from Colorado so knowledgeable about Texas cultures and politics that they can accurately predict what legislation will or won't pass in the upcoming legislative session? It would be one thing to say, "I think he's wrong" but to conclusively say that he is wrong diminishes the creditability of your opinion, in my eyes.

What we know for facts.

For years some OC activists have worked for legal OC of a handgun.

TSRA was not part of that effort in the slightest fashion.

OCT and other activist groups begin to OC long guns, upsetting the yankees up north, and upsetting some supposed pro second amendment folks.

Out of the controversy the legislators begin talking but want long gun OC to stop.

Members, reps, lobbyists of TSRA want long gun OC to stop.

Everybody wants long gun OC to stop except the people who truly are second amendment supporters.

So it seems that long gun OC is both the driving force and irritation for the legislators heading them towards a licensed open carry. NOW I am no mental health expert, but a lot of long years tell me if they do not like long gun OC, they are going to change the law so long gun OC is not legal. Leaving only licensed handgun OC, and concealed handgun license. Which will deprive those who do not wish a license, and those who are to young to get one from their right.

To put it simply What is the problem? Long gun OC!

For politicians what is the solution? Outlaw long gun OC!

How to get it? Offer a crumb in the form of licensed OC!

If I am wrong then I am wrong, if I am right Texans will not find out until after horses have left the gate.

BTW I correctly predicted the Illinois debacle after the court ruling, and tried to tell P4P sellouts that they would lose the chance for OC, they did!

WalkingWolf said:

What we know for facts.

For years some OC activists have worked for legal OC of a handgun.

TSRA was not part of that effort in the slightest fashion.

OCT and other activist groups begin to OC long guns, upsetting the yankees up north, and upsetting some supposed pro second amendment folks.

Out of the controversy the legislators begin talking but want long gun OC to stop.

Members, reps, lobbyists of TSRA want long gun OC to stop.

Everybody wants long gun OC to stop except the people who truly are second amendment supporters.

So it seems that long gun OC is both the driving force and irritation for the legislators heading them towards a licensed open carry. NOW I am no mental health expert, but a lot of long years tell me if they do not like long gun OC, they are going to change the law so long gun OC is not legal. Leaving only licensed handgun OC, and concealed handgun license. Which will deprive those who do not wish a license, and those who are to young to get one from their right.

To put it simply What is the problem? Long gun OC!

For politicians what is the solution? Outlaw long gun OC!

How to get it? Offer a crumb in the form of licensed OC!

If I am wrong then I am wrong, if I am right Texans will not find out until after horses have left the gate.

BTW I correctly predicted the Illinois debacle after the court ruling, and tried to tell P4P sellouts that they would lose the chance for OC, they did!

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I answered this question: I would oppose a bill that licensed long gun carry whether it included handgun OC or not. You never answered the corresponding one: will you support a licensed handgun OC bill if it makes no change to the state of the law regarding long guns?

SA-TX

WalkingWolf said:

YOU oppose OC, just like your opinion that is mine, YOU admitted to being a member of TSRA, and you have said licensed OC at least 4 or 5 times, knowing full well that licensed OC will end the right to OC without a license.

YOU cite Alice Trip testified in favor of UNLICENSED OC!

Also post the financial statement of TSRA major contributors!

I find it funny that a TSRA member fudges and refuses to provide cites for statements is now demanding cites on opinions.

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Please permit me to ramble for a brief moment.

Yup. Licensed OC will make unlicensed OC more unlikely.

Hey, ya got OC of a pistol, albeit with a permission slip, so shut up and sit down or we could very well go back to the good ole days.

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MO has passed OC with permission which places unlicensed carry further out in the future, if ever, in my view. What is unfortunate is that MO is a unlicensed OC state, CC with permission via our constitution. RSMo 21.750.3 gives towns the authority to ban OC. Will more towns ban OC now that OC with permission is the law? We shall see.

OC with permission will not lead to unlicensed carry in MO. Texas will be the same. TN has permission carry regardless of manner and what are the odds that unlicensed carry will ever occur in TN. There is a hint of a interwebz rumor that SC is leaning.....just a little, towards officially discussing unlicensed carry regardless of manner (constitutional carry?).

You normalize open carry by OCing while shopping, eating, washing the car/truck, taking the kids to the bus stop. It is really hard to claim a mom herding kids at a bus stop as a threat to those kids.

Remember, Israelis do exactly these things, normal things. What is odd is that Israel is under terrorist attack just about every day and their government wants everyone to be OC all the time.....our government, where we are not under attack, wants us to be unarmed. I'll wager that our government would take our guns, to make us all safer, if we were to under attack as is Israel.

OC for ME said:

Please permit me to ramble for a brief moment.

Yup. Licensed OC will make unlicensed OC more unlikely.

MO has passed OC with permission which places unlicensed carry further out in the future, if ever, in my view. What is unfortunate is that MO is a unlicensed OC state, CC with permission via our constitution. RSMo 21.750.3 gives towns the authority to ban OC. Will more towns ban OC now that OC with permission is the law? We shall see.

OC with permission will not lead to unlicensed carry in MO. Texas will be the same. TN has permission carry regardless of manner and what are the odds that unlicensed carry will ever occur in TN. There is a hint of a interwebz rumor that SC is leaning.....just a little, towards officially discussing unlicensed carry regardless of manner (constitutional carry?).

You normalize open carry by OCing while shopping, eating, washing the car/truck, taking the kids to the bus stop. It is really hard to claim a mom herding kids at a bus stop as a threat to those kids.

Remember, Israelis do exactly these things, normal things. What is odd is that Israel is under terrorist attack just about every day and their government wants everyone to be OC all the time.....our government, where we are not under attack, wants us to be unarmed. I'll wager that our government would take our guns, to make us all safer, if we were to under attack as is Israel.

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Sorry, I don't follow. Is MO an unlicensed OC state or licensed?

stealthyeliminator said:

How is a person from Colorado so knowledgeable about Texas cultures and politics that they can accurately predict what legislation will or won't pass in the upcoming legislative session? It would be one thing to say, "I think he's wrong" but to conclusively say that he is wrong diminishes the creditability of your opinion, in my eyes.

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True, I was over-reliant on what I read in a couple of other threads. Mea Culpa and Good catch.

I'm still interested on whether I was correct that SA-TX was misunderstanding what WW was trying to say.

SA-TX said:

Sorry, I don't follow. Is MO an unlicensed OC state or licensed?

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Missouri has no state statutes prohibiting OC, but does permit political subdivisions to regulate OC. So, the state is unlicensed OC, but some chunks are not. We've had a lively discussion as to whether there will be an en mass banning of OC by cities and counties. I personally do not think there will be.

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So lets break this down, Wolf boy from North Carolina wants texas to pass unlicensed OC or pass nothing at all? It was carpet baggers like you who took away our right to carry over 130 years ago to keep "those people" from being able to defend themselves.

SA-TX is saying leave it to TSRA in order to get licensed OC passed then we can work on eliminating the license requirement. I will say I don't believe in leaving it to anyone else because I want to make sure it happens, and I will work on getting OC passed in some form.

I want legal unlicensed carry of modern firearms by law abiding citizens and I don't want the law to care if they choose to carry openly, concealed, in their car, in their boat, on their horse, ect. I will not trade something we have now to get something I want. I will say no to licensing the carry of long guns, I will say no to trading progress made on the concealed carry front to pass OC. I will say no to watering down preemption in order to pass OC. I will accept less than what I want in order to get some of it. So I will accept a license to OC, for now.

I have talked with various people from different aspects of our movement. These people include Philip Van Cleave (VCDL), Alice Tripp(TSRA), Charles Cotton(TSRA/NRA), Eddie Zaicek(OKOCA), and more. The ones who have experience in politics will tell you to get what you can and go back to get the rest. And look at where these people are from: Virginia where they have constitutional open carry, Texas where it's no OC of modern handguns, and Oklahoma where they just got Licensed OC. If you don't believe me then contact them yourselves and ask.

All the negative press we are getting needs to stop, we need to do everything we can to generate positive press and to give our opponents a headache while we keep them guessing as to what we are going to do next that they are not expecting. We are in a PR battle and right now we are loosing to MDA of all things! Every time we have a business agree to ask us not to bring firearms into their locations the media trumpets it from the highest hill top the politicians see it as a signal that we are a loosing team, The general public see it as a signal that we are a loosing team, and those two together make sure that we have a bigger fight to get what we want. If we generated positive publicity everyday from now until the end of the next legislative session we could eliminate nearly every restriction on gun rights in one session because we would have the political capital to do so, but if we keep taking losses like this we will be lucky if they don't laugh when the subject of OC comes up.

stealthyeliminator said:

As WalkingWolf said, that is not proper protocol. Let me humor you, though.

If you are referring to this (http://tlcsenate.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?clip_id=8421) hearing, I watched most of it live and the rest of it later. Like I said, I don't recall hearing him say anything to that effect. I'm about to watch the last 10 minutes of it again now. I suspect I'll be disappointed, or actually not disappointed, depending on how you look at it.
...
Just watched the last 10 minutes. Senator Estes said no such thing within the 10 minutes leading up to the gavel dropping, ending the hearing. Perhaps you imagined it. On the plus side, I got to listen to some great testimonies again on my search to ascertain the validity of your claims.

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The remarks by Senator Estes to which I refer begin at approximately 6:41:48 and end at approximately 6:44:30. He twice uses a phrase similar to "hurting the cause". Whether people agree with my characterization or not, it is important to hear directly from him. Everyone can then make up their own mind.

SA-TX

ProGun Podcast said:

SA-TX is saying leave it to TSRA in order to get licensed OC passed then we can work on eliminating the license requirement. I will say I don't believe in leaving it to anyone else because I want to make sure it happens, and I will work on getting OC passed in some form.

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I am a TSRA member and I believe it has the ear and trust of most legislators but I wasn't trying to be exclusive. I just wanted folks to know that there has been a policy change from OC not being a priority issue to where it now is. I'll work with anyone who recognizes the difficulties/realities of the Texas legislative process and is willing to increase liberty/remove restrictions piecemeal, if necessary.

With the above clarification, thumbs up on your post!

SA-TX

SteveInCO said:

True, I was over-reliant on what I read in a couple of other threads. Mea Culpa and Good catch.

I'm still interested on whether I was correct that SA-TX was misunderstanding what WW was trying to say.

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My understanding is that WW's position is that licensed HANDGUN OC can only be achieved at the cost of imposing licensing on LONG GUN OC as well (currently not restricted).

I strongly disagree with that for the reasons I've previously stated or as they say in the British Parliament "I refer the honorable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago."

SA-TX

ProGun Podcast said:

So lets break this down, Wolf boy from North Carolina wants texas to pass unlicensed OC or pass nothing at all? It was carpet baggers like you who took away our right to carry over 130 years ago to keep "those people" from being able to defend themselves.

<snip>

All the negative press we are getting needs to stop, we need to do everything we can to generate positive press and to give our opponents a headache while we keep them guessing as to what we are going to do next that they are not expecting. We are in a PR battle and right now we are loosing to MDA of all things! Every time we have a business agree to ask us not to bring firearms into their locations the media trumpets it from the highest hill top the politicians see it as a signal that we are a loosing team, The general public see it as a signal that we are a loosing team, and those two together make sure that we have a bigger fight to get what we want. If we generated positive publicity everyday from now until the end of the next legislative session we could eliminate nearly every restriction on gun rights in one session because we would have the political capital to do so, but if we keep taking losses like this we will be lucky if they don't laugh when the subject of OC comes up.

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I hate to be a negative nancy, but this is probably the most ignorance-filled post I've seen of yours yet. The first paragraph is pure ignorant hate, and that's about all the addressing it needs. The second paragraph is naive. I read an article just the other day about a handgun-OC advocate group in a state in which handgun-OC is legal being asked not to carry in a restaurant. Essentially the exact same crap that OCT is going through but with handgun OC instead of LGOC. You are not understanding the fact that this "negative PR" IS ALL LIES. They do not need us to do something wrong to fabricate negative press, it's what they've been doing all along! We can stop carrying any firearms or BP pistols at all and they'll still fabricate negative press! Don't be naive. Stick to the facts, set a good example, and exercise your rights. That's all. They're going to tell lies about you no matter how tactful you think you are. Well, let me rephrase, they're going to tell lies about the people on the ground doing work for the cause no matter how tactful they are. We cannot control what lies are published by MDA or similar organizations. All we can do is present the truth. It'd help if people like you did that, spread the truth, instead of criticize those being lied about for being lied about.