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Thread: (Partial) Justice Served. LEO indicted w/ manslaughter x2

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    Regular Member hhofent's Avatar
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    (Partial) Justice Served. LEO indicted w/ manslaughter x2

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/c...chase-23935859

    Officer fired 15 shots through windshield while standing on hood of unarmed mans car.
    He fired 49 shots total and total shots by all officers were 129.
    Got 2 counts of manslaughter. 5 other officers charged for not stopping him.


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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    "Police don't know why Russell didn't stop."

    I do, the driver did not want to beaten or killed. Many people fear a beat down when chased by police, their fears are warranted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    "Police don't know why Russell didn't stop."

    I do, the driver did not want to beaten or killed. Many people fear a beat down when chased by police, their fears are warranted.
    No most police stops do not result in the drivers or occupants being beaten .

    So what your saying in your career as a LEO it must have been normally.

    There are millions of stops that at most the driver receives a citation or warning and goes on his or her way.

    The reason that these incidents make news is that they are relatively rare.

    50 states hundreds of thousands of LEOs making stops and contacting people on a daily basis and were are still talking about a case that happened in November of 2012.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 05-31-2014 at 08:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post

    The reason that these incidents make news is that they are relatively rare.
    No, the reason they make the news is because they are typically 1. Excessive 2. Violent. 3. Unjustified.

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    So feel free to post all the incidents like this that happen then post out how many stops are actually made.

    The math just does not add up to them being the greater number.

    I never said that incidents like this are justifiable or a good thing.

    But in the over all daily actively of the hundreds of thousands of contacts that police have with citizens the percentage of these kinds of actions is small.

    We are not talking good or bad, just math.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 05-31-2014 at 09:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    No, the reason they make the news is because they are typically 1. Excessive 2. Violent. 3. Unjustified.
    Have you ever been stopped and were you beaten.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    No most police stops do not result in the drivers or occupants being beaten .

    So what your saying in your career as a LEO it must have been normally.

    There are millions of stops that at most the driver receives a citation or warning and goes on his or her way.

    The reason that these incidents make news is that they are relatively rare.

    50 states hundreds of thousands of LEOs making stops and contacting people on a daily basis and were are still talking about a case that happened in November of 2012.
    What I am saying that people in minorities have certain fears of being beaten or not treated fairly by some police. So they run, and when they are caught they are in fact beaten and in some cases killed. It is becoming more of a problem, especially since some LEO refuse to admit there is or ever was a problem. Even back years ago cases like Rodney King highlighted the beatings by police. Was he wrong? Yes! Did he deserve that beating? NO!

    Did this couple deserve? NO! In no case does anybody deserve to be treated this way, unless it is necessary force. The fact is it is getting worse, it hardly is rare anymore. Evidently the difference between some officers and I, is I found it disgusting and always found it disgusting.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    One divided by one_million does not equal ZERO! Learn the difference between risk and hazard. The risk of death is low but the hazard is infinite.
    Who's talking about zero 1 in a million if far from normal and typical.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Who's talking about zero 1 in a million if far from normal and typical.
    The fact that it happens even in the smallest percentage is outrageous. What is more outrageous and in a higher percentage is the officers who make excuses for it, instead of damning it.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I would say that 100% of the people I discuss my former profession with have had or had somebody they know had a bad encounter with police.

    That is damning, and the cases do come to light back it up that it is a epidemic. WE ourselves encountered one of these officers, who pulled us over for no reason. I told him I was armed and he backed off, later he was arrested for raping Hispanic women. Now in the summer I am very red, some people mistake that for Hispanic. He saw me gas up in a station and then began to follow us. Once down our road he turned on the lights, had I not been there my wife would have likely been another victim for him. This was a state trooper, who most would expect to be more professional, one incident is too much. And officers who cover or make excuses for it do not deserve to wear a badge.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Yes we can agree that when these incidents happen it is a bad thing the officers involved should and need to be punished.

    But to say it happens more often then not is just not true.

    If it happens 50% of the time it is average it happens 60% percent of the time it happens more often then not. if it happens 40 percent of the time it happen less often then not.

    But we are more likely to see this happening 1/100 of a percent or less of the time.

    The anti's they to say guns are used more often in crime then not we come back with the truth and as less then not a very small percent are use in crime.

    Is one truth better then the other.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Yes we can agree that when these incidents happen it is a bad thing the officers involved should and need to be punished.

    But to say it happens more often then not is just not true.

    If it happens 50% of the time it is average it happens 60% percent of the time it happens more often then not. if it happens 40 percent of the time it happen less often then not.

    But we are more likely to see this happening 1/100 of a percent or less of the time.

    The anti's they to say guns are used more often in crime then not we come back with the truth and as less then not a very small percent are use in crime.

    Is one truth better then the other.
    Well said. +1

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I don't care if it is 1 in a million, to make excuses of any kind for it, indicates that some officers are willing to cover it up, and make excuses. It is a lame excuse. And minorities suffer it more then Caucasians, they have real justification to fear police. I am amazed at the denials by LEOs, and disgusted.

    And because of those cover ups and excuses the problem is clearly worse than reported. Rouge officers get away with most times, it takes multiple complaints, and often STILL there is no punishment. What is consistent is some officers trying to deny or minimize it as "Ohhh it only happens a few times, so suck it up!"
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 05-31-2014 at 10:07 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Your chance of having your rights abused in some manner by law enforcement is in all likelihood greater than your chance of having to fire your weapon in self defense.

    The violations my vary, I know as a teenager we got hassled regularly by the police trying to catch us drinking, with drugs or having sex. The number of 4th amendment violations would have been staggering if any of that was ever challenged in court.

    During these stops or contacts some kids would make smart remarks, and fairly often get roughed up for it. That right there is abuse. Just like no matter what someone says you can't use that as justification of lethal force (even a threat has to be accompanied by means and jeopardy, ergo not just stating intent but in some manner acting upon carrying it out) it is also not justification for assault.

    One of the funniest moments of that time I had got pulled over for speeding (which I was), and during the stop the state trooper thought he had spotted a bag of weed in the glove box of my dad's car. My friend that was with me saw it too, and pointed it out when the officer asked to see "that bag". Well what he was pointing at was a couple screws that were covered in grease wrapped in cellophane from some part of the car my dad had saved to fix or something. I, knowing what the "bag" was thought he must have been referring to something else, saw my friend's leather jacket he had dropped on the floor when he got in - it looked like an old duffle bag. So I reached over and picked it up. The offcer goes "No, that one" pointing to the glove box door that had the contents partly on it after I'd fished out the registration and insurance ID. So I picked it up and gave it to him. He hastily unravels it into his hand and the look on his face was priceless as for a full 5 seconds he started at 2 screws covered in black axle grease laying on his hand.

    My friend was trying not to kill himself laughing (was more like choking trying not to), the cop was getting redder by the second. He stuffed the screws back into the cellophane, dropped it on the glove box door and said "Drive slower" and retreated back to his car holding his greasy hand away from his uniform. Now had my friend started actually laughing, or I made some smart remarks we may well have wound up with some serious injuries that day. Lots of other kids did for just that reason. Fortunately we refrained and I got out of a ticket as the cop probably didn't want the story of the greasy screws being retold in court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Have you ever been stopped and were you beaten.
    Are you attempting to belittle the brutality and the attention it receives by citing all the non victims?

    At what point, what *specific* number, does it stop becoming rare?

    At what point do you stop seeing numbers and start seeing PEOPLE?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    And how is the citizen supposed to know which one of the thousand might rape, beat, or shoot them?
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Are you attempting to belittle the brutality and the attention it receives by citing all the non victims?

    At what point, what *specific* number, does it stop becoming rare?

    At what point do you stop seeing numbers and start seeing PEOPLE?

    You throw out it is " they are typically"

    If they are typically of the normal contact then any personal knowledge of this happening to you is relative.

    No attempt to belittle just the facts that hundreds of thousands of contacts with police if not millions do not result with the person being stopped being attacked and beaten.

    By saying it is typically implies it happens more often then not your trying to see numbers on the other side when they are not there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    And how is the citizen supposed to know which one of the thousand might rape, beat, or shoot them?

    How does one know that any body they meet is not the next mass killer, multiple, rapist or other criminal out there.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    How does one know that any body they meet is not the next mass killer, multiple, rapist or other criminal out there.
    Exactly, so as long as there is one maniac with a badge, and no way to identify that maniac. all cannot be trusted. If the current LEA want to be trusted they need to stop acting like asshats trying to minimize rape, murder, theft and assault from those of authority. I have as much hate for those that enable it as those that do it.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    If we lived in a perfect world with perfect people then perfect things would happen.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    If we lived in a perfect world with perfect people then perfect things would happen.
    But we don't we live in a world where a certain amount people are ******-bags, and some of those wear badges, and look like any other person wearing a badge. In a perfect world these ******-bags would get the death penalty for violating the powers that have been given them.

    When the rest of the police community steps up to the plate to condemn these ******-bags, and put them in jail then I might say that minorities have less to fear from said ******-bags.

    As it is now there are too many in the police community that try to minimize the pain and suffering they cause by claiming it is "rare".
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Last night on the news was the first I'd heard of it as well. My emphasis was that while this man and 5 of his supervisors were charged, the chase involved over 100 officers.

    Apparently shooting the unarmed guys in the car is ok, and watching a felony by a fellow officer is ok. But when you empty your magazine at point blank range, that's where they draw the line.

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    How does one know that any body they meet is not the next mass killer, multiple, rapist or other criminal out there.
    ^^^^^This rationale paints law abiding citizens, by default as rapists, murderers, prostitutes.......fill in your ad hominem.

    What we seem to be arguing about here is accountability. While I am inclined to agree with your ascertation these incidents are rare, accountability for them is even rarer.

    Military service is full of bad apples much like law enforcement service. Law enforcement deals with the public and as such is scrutinized by the public for it's actions. Both organizations have a unique culture I would submitt are a direct reflection of the current society. The only way I see to change it is to change attitudes that means complaining about it when it is not congruent with values. I acknowledge my example is oversimplifed and philisophical in nature. At the core of the OP is a system that is clearly not congruent with society but what can we do about it?


    Q. Why does it seem so hard to get the good guys to hold the bad guys accountable ?

    This applies to both the Military and LEO service.

    It seems the general American Public has forgotten about Staff Sgt Bales. ~Wonder why~

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Are you attempting to belittle the brutality and the attention it receives by citing all the non victims?

    At what point, what *specific* number, does it stop becoming rare?

    At what point do you stop seeing numbers and start seeing PEOPLE?
    +1 The majority of Germans didn't suffer at the hands of German government. I bet most were smart enough that "resistance is futile" so because they didn't get beat up it must have meant they weren't victims.

    Some apologist rationale.....
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 06-01-2014 at 07:14 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Interesting, if this was a group of high school kids cruising and one friend went in and robbed a store and killed the employee/proprietor and they had no knowledge of the crime they would be sent to prison or even killed by the state as accomplices.

    State agents knowingly watch one of their own gang members murder someone and they get a slap on the wrist?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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