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Thread: anchor stores at the mall?

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    anchor stores at the mall?

    ok guys I DID do a search for "Mall" and "Anchor stores" Our local Mall has gunbuster signs on all the MALL entrance doors, however a restraint I frequent has a separate entrance from the parking lot and has none on that door.. So am I good to go as long as I don't go into the mall proper?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrob33 View Post
    ok guys I DID do a search for "Mall" and "Anchor stores" Our local Mall has gunbuster signs on all the MALL entrance doors, however a restraint I frequent has a separate entrance from the parking lot and has none on that door.. So am I good to go as long as I don't go into the mall proper?
    Yes. The people who lease the space can decide if they want to allow carry in their space.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Makes sense to me, just wanted some others thoughts..thanks man

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    Thumbs down Property Owner Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    Yes. The people who lease the space can decide if they want to allow carry in their space.
    Unfortunately, this advice would be absolutely incorrect. If the property owner says something is not allowed on their property it doesn't matter which door you go in or out.

    Think of it from the property owners' point of view: Say you have an attached garage with an apartment that you're going to rent out. (I will completely ignore the... difficulties, of having a stranger live so close to your family.) You then make the rule that there's no smoking, or pets, or guns on your property. Does it matter whether or not they use the door through the house or an exterior entrance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne&Vera View Post
    Unfortunately, this advice would be absolutely incorrect. If the property owner says something is not allowed on their property it doesn't matter which door you go in or out.

    Think of it from the property owners' point of view: Say you have an attached garage with an apartment that you're going to rent out. (I will completely ignore the... difficulties, of having a stranger live so close to your family.) You then make the rule that there's no smoking, or pets, or guns on your property. Does it matter whether or not they use the door through the house or an exterior entrance?
    Im not a lawyer so my rebuttal is based on my own interpretation.

    1) Renting out an detached garage or house or apartment are entirely different than leasing a business space. Any and all policies must be clearly laid out in the lease contract. And signs at main entrances and un written policy are not the same!

    2) My other disagreement pertains to the whole general no guns policies or the so called owners rights.
    Not one property owners rights to deny others constitutional right to be armed is protected under the constitution and nothing in there says they have ultimate ownership being untouchable.
    If the gov can come in and condemn your property if you refuse to sell, or claim its a water shed and tell you that you cant build on it, then its not really yours/theirs to begin with, is it? The owner cant deny service based on not only a few things (other than arms of corse, which is protected by the USC) and or your sexual orientation (says nothing of it in the USC) regardless of owners belief, Then no owner/manager running a business that doesn't require a private membership should be able to tell LAC's they cant be armed! Public domain is Public domain, just like you cant sit on your "own" porch and drink a beer, if your mailbox is on your porch, that means your "own" porch is public domain and you can be arrested for public intoxication or under the SDA you cant drink anywhere while your armed (that includes your "own" house or property). To me it is no different than a parking lot, if its free parking you cant tell someone they cant park there, but if you charge a fee to park then you can say who can and who cant. Just because its under a roof makes no difference, it is open to the public therefore you get all walks of life, if you have private membership fees and regs then you can say who can and who cant. If you don't want people carrying arms in your business then dont open it to the general public.
    But not everyone sees it like this and have instead chosen to pick and choose the parts of the USC that they like or that suits them, then reject the other parts. They have chosen to side with the money instead of the people!

    So with the current laws the way they are and since I'm not filthy rich so I can hire a legal team and take action for constitution and civil rights violations pertaining to all unconstitutional laws, the only way I/we can fight this crap (aside from constantly writing our lawmakers) is with what little money we have. And that is take our money somewhere else, stop supporting businesses that don't support LAC's. Unfortunately there are a lot of mindless, complacent people that don't care what they are losing and will continue to give them money and some even say they support gun rights and gun owners but will throw us under the bus in a heart beat.

    What little voice you have, non the less is a voice and if you don't use it then just keep it shut and take what they give you!
    Last edited by Robert318; 06-08-2014 at 12:13 PM.
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
    But not a hair of your head will perish.
    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.",
    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne&Vera View Post
    Unfortunately, this advice would be absolutely incorrect. If the property owner says something is not allowed on their property it doesn't matter which door you go in or out.

    Think of it from the property owners' point of view: Say you have an attached garage with an apartment that you're going to rent out. (I will completely ignore the... difficulties, of having a stranger live so close to your family.) You then make the rule that there's no smoking, or pets, or guns on your property. Does it matter whether or not they use the door through the house or an exterior entrance?
    so by this logic would the management of an apartment complex have the power to dictate to its residents, that they could not have fire arms, or alcohol etc inside their own apartments? I know most do have rules about the parking lot etc, but those are agreed upon by contract.

    The issue I see is it is completely possible to enter the mall through these establishments, therefore having seen no "gunbuster" signs. The Mall has went to great pains posting them on every single door into the mall proper, but not the doors leading into these establishments, is this simply an oversight on the Malls part?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrob33 View Post
    so by this logic would the management of an apartment complex have the power to dictate to its residents, that they could not have fire arms, or alcohol etc inside their own apartments? I know most do have rules about the parking lot etc, but those are agreed upon by contract.

    The issue I see is it is completely possible to enter the mall through these establishments, therefore having seen no "gunbuster" signs. The Mall has went to great pains posting them on every single door into the mall proper, but not the doors leading into these establishments, is this simply an oversight on the Malls part?
    Yes, apartment management, as well as other private property owners can set contractual requirements or restrictions on their own property. Specifically, Utica Square restricts all open carry despite individually owned stores' or franchises' individual policy.
    Again, if it were your property, why would you not be legally able to put it in your contact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert318 View Post
    Im not a lawyer so my rebuttal is based on my own interpretation.

    1) Renting out an detached garage or house or apartment are entirely different than leasing a business space. Any and all policies must be clearly laid out in the lease contract. And signs at main entrances and un written policy are not the same!

    2) My other disagreement pertains to the whole general no guns policies or the so called owners rights.
    Not one property owners rights to deny others constitutional right to be armed is protected under the constitution and nothing in there says they have ultimate ownership being untouchable.
    If the gov can come in and condemn your property if you refuse to sell, or claim its a water shed and tell you that you cant build on it, then its not really yours/theirs to begin with, is it? The owner cant deny service based on not only a few things (other than arms of corse, which is protected by the USC) and or your sexual orientation (says nothing of it in the USC) regardless of owners belief, Then no owner/manager running a business that doesn't require a private membership should be able to tell LAC's they cant be armed! Public domain is Public domain, just like you cant sit on your "own" porch and drink a beer, if your mailbox is on your porch, that means your "own" porch is public domain and you can be arrested for public intoxication or under the SDA you cant drink anywhere while your armed (that includes your "own" house or property). To me it is no different than a parking lot, if its free parking you cant tell someone they cant park there, but if you charge a fee to park then you can say who can and who cant. Just because its under a roof makes no difference, it is open to the public therefore you get all walks of life, if you have private membership fees and regs then you can say who can and who cant. If you don't want people carrying arms in your business then dont open it to the general public.
    But not everyone sees it like this and have instead chosen to pick and choose the parts of the USC that they like or that suits them, then reject the other parts. They have chosen to side with the money instead of the people!

    So with the current laws the way they are and since I'm not filthy rich so I can hire a legal team and take action for constitution and civil rights violations pertaining to all unconstitutional laws, the only way I/we can fight this crap (aside from constantly writing our lawmakers) is with what little money we have. And that is take our money somewhere else, stop supporting businesses that don't support LAC's. Unfortunately there are a lot of mindless, complacent people that don't care what they are losing and will continue to give them money and some even say they support gun rights and gun owners but will throw us under the bus in a heart beat.

    What little voice you have, non the less is a voice and if you don't use it then just keep it shut and take what they give you!
    I'm no lawyer either, but I'll take only one stab laying this out as far as I understand it:
    1- BTW, corporations are "people", legally (not sure if that's relevant here.) Any non-public space is, by definition owned by a private "person" of some sort. Some of that space may be open to the public for use, but is still controlled (within the... restrictions government involvement) by its private owner. Security or leasing agencies only have legal control because some portion of the owner's rights have been temporarily transferred in a limited way to them. Agreed "UNwritten" policies are legally unenforceable.
    2- These are not " so called owners," they are the legal owners In Fact and have inherent rights; the same inherent rights you have that are NOT given by the Bill of Rights. The property owner has won multiple times the right to restrict other's exercise of their constitutionally guaranteed rights, because their exercise was done on private property. Picketing (for instance), has been upheld numerous time... just off the property on public right away.
    Ya... property condemning... Supposed to be restricted to the public's good but that whole issue is way out of control. Not, I think, directly related to carry in malls, even considering non-discrimination legislation. This property is not public domain. "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service." We already know of a great many saying the opposite and being legally recognized to restrict carry, so why not a restaurant catering to 2A enthusiasts? "No Gun, No Eat!"
    Public drunk, another Gordian knots of confusion I know very little about. Personally I'd rather live far enough that the public can't see me on my porch.
    Yes, owners' rights includes the parking lot. (Think: "For use by customers only.") The outside of property is no more public space than the inside of any building. If you've been personally notified, in writing, (tow notice) because they know you're not a customer (even store employees not parking in the appropriate section), you've no legal leg to fight your car being hauled away. Whether you pay to park or not. It's not siding with the money, it's protecting the owner's rights. If it's in public view it can be photographed, right" But if you paint graffiti on it...
    If you're the owner, that means legally protecting your rights. That's not crap, that's YOUR RIGHTS. You're not charging people to use the front edge of your property, ( presumably) right? Does that mean that just because the school kids walk across the front of your lawn; highschoolers have the right to (insert ridiculous, and probably asinine, thing here) on your property? If you've told them before (because we know signs hold no special magical legal power), then repeated incidents are sufficient to call the police. (As far as I understand in general circumstances, yada yada)

    As 2A Open Carriers, or LGBTQQIP2SAA+, or whatever... citizens have the right to wear Che Guevara shirts, display rainbow flags, carry guns, or whatever; until the point where property owners (or their legal agent~ ex: manager) decides it's disruptive to themselves, their other customers, or whatever they want. Service can then be immediately denied and you must leave to take the matter up in court LATER. Again, think if it were YOUR property?? Who would you want to have the legal precedent for immediate relief if "Occupy" targeted you, your business, or property you owned?

    Again, as I understand, in my experiance; etc, yada, et al

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne&Vera View Post
    I'm no lawyer either, but I'll take only one stab laying this out as far as I understand it:
    1- BTW, corporations are "people", legally (not sure if that's relevant here.) Any non-public space is, by definition owned by a private "person" of some sort. Some of that space may be open to the public for use, but is still controlled (within the... restrictions government involvement) by its private owner. Security or leasing agencies only have legal control because some portion of the owner's rights have been temporarily transferred in a limited way to them. Agreed "UNwritten" policies are legally unenforceable.
    2- These are not " so called owners," they are the legal owners In Fact and have inherent rights; the same inherent rights you have that are NOT given by the Bill of Rights. The property owner has won multiple times the right to restrict other's exercise of their constitutionally guaranteed rights, because their exercise was done on private property. Picketing (for instance), has been upheld numerous time... just off the property on public right away.
    Ya... property condemning... Supposed to be restricted to the public's good but that whole issue is way out of control. Not, I think, directly related to carry in malls, even considering non-discrimination legislation. This property is not public domain. "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service." We already know of a great many saying the opposite and being legally recognized to restrict carry, so why not a restaurant catering to 2A enthusiasts? "No Gun, No Eat!"
    Public drunk, another Gordian knots of confusion I know very little about. Personally I'd rather live far enough that the public can't see me on my porch.
    Yes, owners' rights includes the parking lot. (Think: "For use by customers only.") The outside of property is no more public space than the inside of any building. If you've been personally notified, in writing, (tow notice) because they know you're not a customer (even store employees not parking in the appropriate section), you've no legal leg to fight your car being hauled away. Whether you pay to park or not. It's not siding with the money, it's protecting the owner's rights. If it's in public view it can be photographed, right" But if you paint graffiti on it...
    If you're the owner, that means legally protecting your rights. That's not crap, that's YOUR RIGHTS. You're not charging people to use the front edge of your property, ( presumably) right? Does that mean that just because the school kids walk across the front of your lawn; highschoolers have the right to (insert ridiculous, and probably asinine, thing here) on your property? If you've told them before (because we know signs hold no special magical legal power), then repeated incidents are sufficient to call the police. (As far as I understand in general circumstances, yada yada)

    As 2A Open Carriers, or LGBTQQIP2SAA+, or whatever... citizens have the right to wear Che Guevara shirts, display rainbow flags, carry guns, or whatever; until the point where property owners (or their legal agent~ ex: manager) decides it's disruptive to themselves, their other customers, or whatever they want. Service can then be immediately denied and you must leave to take the matter up in court LATER. Again, think if it were YOUR property?? Who would you want to have the legal precedent for immediate relief if "Occupy" targeted you, your business, or property you owned?

    Again, as I understand, in my experiance; etc, yada, et al
    Not quite sure I follow you and that you are quite following me.

    Sounds like you might be comparing apples to oranges. Walking through or casually patronizing an establishment while being armed, dressed in a non lewdness self expressing manner, displaying sexual or religious preference, etc.. And being vocally or maliciously disruptive or protesting a business are two completely different acts.

    And Im not opposed to property owners being able to protect there property but am also aware of the difference between private property thats open to public and private property thats not. Similar to famous people expecting absolute privacy, you lose certain things as a result of being in the "public" eye. In a public parking lot Im pretty sure they have to post notice of tow or your vehicle has to sit unmoved for 24 hrs before they tow but Bryan I bet would know, and in a pay to park lot the notice has already been posted and they can tow immediately. Just because its privately owned its still public domain and there are laws that govern what owners can do and not do on "their" property. My main point is that though property owners rights are important so are those of LAC's and to thread on ones is to tread on many. We must work to a common ground and stop allowing profiling or discrimination based on looks, self expression, or the exercising of ones inalienable rights. Being who you are or being prepared to protect yourself doesn't and shouldn't make you suspect.
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
    But not a hair of your head will perish.
    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.",
    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne&Vera View Post
    Unfortunately, this advice would be absolutely incorrect. If the property owner says something is not allowed on their property it doesn't matter which door you go in or out.

    Think of it from the property owners' point of view: Say you have an attached garage with an apartment that you're going to rent out. (I will completely ignore the... difficulties, of having a stranger live so close to your family.) You then make the rule that there's no smoking, or pets, or guns on your property. Does it matter whether or not they use the door through the house or an exterior entrance?
    As far as I know, in the balls around the OKC area, even when the mall entrances are posted, the anchor stores (or any store that has it's own entrance) can have their own policy regarding whatever they want as long as it doesn't violate their contract with the mall. I can carry in JC Penny all day long, but I can't cross that magical boundary into the common section of "the mall". The mall posts it's policy inside common doors and I believe at the entrance to the common areas from the anchor stores, thus the anchor stores can have a different policy.

    Some malls may have a different policy, but the worst that is going to happen is you are asked to leave or leave your firearm in your car.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Agreed all they can do is ask me to leave, was just a passing thought while I was eating a steak, I kinda figured it would all depend on what kind of contract the mall has with the stores that rent their spaces.

    Thanks everybody for the input, but it seems Ill just have to find this one out the hard way. Ill post the results in the Open carry experience thread.

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