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Thread: Five dead in Las Vegas shooting

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    Newbie protias's Avatar
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    Five dead in Las Vegas shooting

    http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-...213257183.html

    Nothing would have prevented this tragedy.

    The attackers then headed to a nearby Walmart store, exchanging gunfire with and ultimately killing a civilian who was carrying a concealed weapon.
    I thought CCers had a tactical advantage?
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-...213257183.html

    Nothing would have prevented this tragedy.



    I thought CCers had a tactical advantage?
    With it still being very early in the investigation I'd take anything on the news other then the number of victims with a grain of salt. After watching the press conference the sheriff said there was no confirmation at this time that anyone other then officers fired on the suspects. This article also leaves out the exchange between officers and the suspects in Wal-Mart.

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    According to that article, the CCer exchanged fire with the suspects. To me that says it didnt matter his mode of carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vegaspassat View Post
    According to that article, the CCer exchanged fire with the suspects. To me that says it didnt matter his mode of carry.

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    And, if the report is true that this one lawful firearm possessor engaged 2 armed individuals---- HE IS A HERO! and should be identified as such! Truely, tragic he lost his life, but since the 2 BG's had not only the weapons used to execute the 2 LEOs but also the LEO's firearms---- HIS ACTIONS DID SAVE MANY LIVES!
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    Regular Member Craftymommy's Avatar
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    According to the news conference I watched on channel 8, the sheriff did not confirm any citizens there with a ccw that exchanged gun fire. Only that the victim in walmart was female and they have not confirmed her identity. The officers have been identified as Alan Beck and Igor Soldo.

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    Regular Member garand_guy's Avatar
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    This is why we carry guns. Hopefully, the investigation will show that an armed citizen's intervention forced the shooters to change their plans and commit suicide before killing anyone else.
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    10 dollars says the sheriff tries to tie it in with oath keepers and/or the bundy militia

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    In an instance like this, I can't help but wonder.... being that these two killers were targeting police, I wonder if this could have been an instance where OC made a person more likely to become a target.

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    Granted, this is certainly a unique situation

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    Quote Originally Posted by vegaspassat View Post
    In an instance like this, I can't help but wonder.... being that these two killers were targeting police, I wonder if this could have been an instance where OC made a person more likely to become a target.

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    I don't think it would have mattered. Most people don't carry. Do you think they'd try to target a gun store?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    And there it is http://m.reviewjournal.com/news/shoo...indiana-couple

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    And, if the report is true that this one lawful firearm possessor engaged 2 armed individuals---- HE IS A HERO! and should be identified as such! Truely, tragic he lost his life, but since the 2 BG's had not only the weapons used to execute the 2 LEOs but also the LEO's firearms---- HIS ACTIONS DID SAVE MANY LIVES!
    This will be taken by the liberals to prove arming citizens does nothing to protect people. *deep sigh* We have another potential CT or NY 'SAFE' Act on our hands? hopefully in NV there are enough patriots to thwart such movements.

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    Regular Member SharpShootur's Avatar
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    The officers form of carry had NOTHING to do with being targets. Think about it. If you're one of these nut jobs that want to do a killing spree, you find a large group of unarmed people. However, if you go to the location, find a POLICE SQUAD CAR, and then find UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICERS having lunch inside the nearby restaurant, knowing they will IMMEDIATELY intervene, and thwart your plans of genocide, what do you do? Obviously, you take out your threats. In this instance, if there were OCers/CCers eating, this more than likely wouldn't have gone down this way. Why? Because the OCer/CCer wear plain clothes. Furthermore, they don't drive police vehicles that stand out in a sea of other multicolored parked cars in a parking lot. The shooters would have just proceeded to Walmart and started the spree...until the OCers/CCers got whiff of the situation and intervened. And the OCers/CCers would have saved the day!

    Unfortunately, there were NO armed citizens to stop the madness (see report http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-...213257183.html ). However, the police did arrive in a timely fashion and engaged the psychos. One psycho murdered by his accomplice and then the accomplice committing suicide.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garand_guy View Post
    This is why we carry guns. Hopefully, the investigation will show that an armed citizen's intervention forced the shooters to change their plans and commit suicide before killing anyone else.
    I'm not so sure about that, they did not kill anyone else in the restaurant, and from what I understand told the patrons to get out. IMO if the CCer had stayed out of it there would only be four dead. While it was heroic, I would not do it, even carrying open, unless they fired or were about to fire upon me.

    A revolution usually is overturning government, and their agents, the actions are usually claimed for the people.

    I do not see this as a spree, but an intentional targeting of government agents(police officers).
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-09-2014 at 12:38 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharpShootur View Post
    ...Unfortunately, there were NO armed citizens to stop the madness (see report http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-...213257183.html ). However, the police did arrive in a timely fashion and engaged the psychos. One psycho murdered by his accomplice and then the accomplice committing suicide.
    The killed bystander, Joseph Wilcox, 31, is now being identified as carrying a legal concealed weapon and confronting the male suspect. His tactics did not work, and he was killed by the female suspect behind him that he may not have known was involved at the time. It is unclear still whether or not he fired a shot. It is also unclear whether this intervention saved other lives, which it very likely did.
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-09-2014 at 02:18 PM. Reason: correct first name of victim
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    That article highlights a great example of gun control laws doing nothing, since criminals are intent on breaking laws. The article states he was turned away at the Bundy protest for being a felon. So really he shouldn't have been able to purchase/own ANY of these firearms... right?

    Also, it appears very likley the bystander saved people's lives by likely injuring Jared before the situation escalated further, as it was stated they were intent on a standoff with the Police & death by cop. Plans appear to have changed after this confrontation.
    Last edited by z28power; 06-09-2014 at 12:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    The killed bystander, James Wilcox, 31, is now being identified as carrying a legal concealed weapon and confronting the male suspect. His tactics did not work, and he was killed by the female suspect behind him that he may not have known was involved at the time. It is unclear still whether or not he fired a shot. It is also unclear whether this intervention saved other lives, which it very likely did.

    Two are a lot bigger threat then one and if they are working as a team even more so.
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    The couple had more plans to attack a courthouse, the civilian victim may have deterred that attack should the two used Walmart to get away. Which if it is as crowded as most Walmarts would be tactical place to do that. So he may have saved the lives at the courthouse, but I do not think from witness reports the two had any intention of killing what they saw as innocent citizens.

    What they did was very very wrong, but let's not stretch it past what it was, a attack on police officers. Which many criminals feel it is justified even though they do not justify harming the public at large. The problem we are having is that people are frustrated with police abuse, while most would never do such a thing, these two were nut cases. Only a small percentage of police are abusive, and that does not justify taking it out on good cops.

    The way to stop police abuse is not by violence, but pressure on the courts and the politicians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The couple had more plans to attack a courthouse, the civilian victim may have deterred that attack should the two used Walmart to get away. Which if it is as crowded as most Walmarts would be tactical place to do that. So he may have saved the lives at the courthouse, but I do not think from witness reports the two had any intention of killing what they saw as innocent citizens.

    What they did was very very wrong, but let's not stretch it past what it was, a attack on police officers. Which many criminals feel it is justified even though they do not justify harming the public at large. The problem we are having is that people are frustrated with police abuse, while most would never do such a thing, these two were nut cases. Only a small percentage of police are abusive, and that does not justify taking it out on good cops.

    The way to stop police abuse is not by violence, but pressure on the courts and the politicians.
    The courts and politicians rely on police authoritarianism, if not violence, to uphold the "system"; their livelihoods depend on it. The politicians rely on the "I'm a law-and-order, tough-on-crime, guy; so, re-elect me and I'll keep you safe." The judges rely on the same mindset to get appointed to the bench by the politicians or elected by the public.

    I am not saying all police officers are violent and/or authoritarian, or extreme. I certainly don't know if Officers Beck and Soldo were, nor do I have any reason to believe they were. However, it doesn't matter at this point. What matters is that two human beings, who I am sure helped/protected their fair share of people, were murdered. As police officers on the front line, and as human beings, they deserve our respect and regret for what happened to them, and their families.

    Mr. Wilcox also needs to be recognized for the bravery he demonstrated. The left and gun confiscation fascists will use this incident as another springboard to cry out for more "gun control" measures. However, Mr. Wilcox demonstrates to the sane that not every person outside law enforcement who carries a weapon in public is a threat to society, bound to start spraying bullets at innocent people in large crowds. The fact is that OCers and CCWers are law abiding, sane, responsible people, who not only carry to protect themselves and families, but to come to the aid of the public in times of need, and even to the aid of police officers. I hope that is the message that the public gets from this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    The killed bystander, Joseph Wilcox, 31, is now being identified as carrying a legal concealed weapon and confronting the male suspect. His tactics did not work, and he was killed by the female suspect behind him that he may not have known was involved at the time. It is unclear still whether or not he fired a shot. It is also unclear whether this intervention saved other lives, which it very likely did.
    MAC, I think you make an important point about tactics. It appears the killers had superior tactics: the male shooter openly carried his weapon, while the female shooter stayed back to ambush anyone who attempted to engage her partner. I read somewhere in the initial account that the female shooter approached the store pushing a shopping cart, while the male approached obviously armed. Very effective, and shrewd, tactics!

    I don't know what level of tactical training Mr. Wilcox had, if any. Would you say in your experience that most CCWers (and OCers for that matter) don't have the level of tactical training necessary to be effective in a situation like this one? Even so, would someone who had a good amount of tactical training have fared any better than Mr. Wilcox given the shrewdness of the shooters' tactics? What would have been better tactics for Mr. Wilcox, staying back and assessing the situation for a longer period of time, thus allowing the female to expose herself as an active shooter?
    Last edited by ed2276; 06-09-2014 at 05:39 PM.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    reality check...it is, as it always is with the sudden and violent loss of life with its many impacts to quite a few ppl, is a tragic environment made worse by the degradation of the officers' remains after they were murdered.

    to try and second guess Mr. Wilcox's actions w/o benefit of WM's cam and to rely on 'citizens' eye witness accounts leads to tremendous leap of faith(s) and impossible number of conclusions does Mr. Wilcox's memory an injustice, which will and can cause even more grief on his immediate family as they grapple with the ramification of his actions.

    this being the public forum it is, I would be disheartened to see a news article based on our learned supposition(s) what Mr. Wilcox should or should not have done or weather Mr. Wilcox should even have gotten involved in the first place or how many lives he might have saved as forum members Monday morning quarterback from afar.

    I am positive there will be some members whose bravado will speak out stating they would have done this or that or or or...

    just saying...

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    Last edited by solus; 06-09-2014 at 06:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    reality check...it is, as it always is with the sudden and violent loss of life with its many impacts to quite a few ppl, is a tragic environment made worse by the degradation of the officers' remains after they were murdered.

    to try and second guess Mr. Wilcox's actions w/o benefit of WM's cam and to rely on 'citizens' eye witness accounts leads to tremendous leap of faith(s) and impossible number of conclusions does Mr. Wilcox's memory an injustice, which will and can cause even more grief on his immediate family as they grapple with the ramification of his actions.

    this being the public forum it is, I would be disheartened to see a news article based on our learned supposition(s) what Mr. Wilcox should or should not have done or weather Mr. Wilcox should even have gotten involved in the first place or how many lives he might have saved as forum members Monday morning quarterback from afar.

    I am positive there will be some members whose bravado will speak out stating they would have done this or that or or or...

    just saying...

    ipse

    We here, as well as police officers, learn by the mistakes of others. There is no disrespect or degradation involved in asking what happened and how it might have better been handled. Sometimes there were no mistakes; it just has to be chalked up to "**** happens".

    When I went through the reserve police academy in California, we saw videos and heard 911 tapes of officers who made tactical errors, which cost them their lives. When the Texas trooper was overwhelmed by three drug couriers and shot to death the video was shown to other troopers so they wouldn't make the same error (allowing himself to be surrounded by three occupants of the car). This training actually helped another Texas trooper survive in a similar situation he encountered not long after he saw the video.

    The questions asked, the analysis of the situation, the actions or failures to act on the part of all actors can be valuable tactical training tools for police officers, CCWers, and OCers alike. Unfortunately, the lessons that can be learned here come at the expense of the officers' and Mr. Wilcox's lives.
    Last edited by ed2276; 06-09-2014 at 07:16 PM.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Well one thing is sure - the two shooters appeared to be bat crap crazy! It also goes to show with tons of gun laws on the books, the one thing we don't need is more. Criminals by their very nature, will always find away around the law. For those who would disparage the armed citizen who tried to stop the male - from what we know (little to nothing) at least he tried to help. Many people would have simply ran. He did not. Good on him, I say. This is yet another glaring example of why the public should be armed. The police cannot be everywhere at all times, given the choice of a cell phone or a pistol, the choice should be an easy one.
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    No doubt he put himself in harms way. For the record, I would have ran the opposite direction.

    From the reports I have seen he was in the checkout line and left the line to confront the male. Not knowing all the circumstances he walked past the female and she shot him. Nobody is disparaging him, he acted heroically, but because he did not know just what was going on it may have cost him his life.

    We have to understand if we decide to get involved in an active shooting, accessing the situation is imperative before leaping. To prevent another LAC from making the same mistake, we must look at or for mistakes.

    The officers were ambushed, there was nothing they could have done to prevent it.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    sigh...police are trained to serve and protect, as such lesson's learned about failed tactics is beneficial to possibly preclude making the same type of mistake(s) in the future.

    additionally, police are, for the most part, trained and molded from the same national tactical tomes. so again, lesson's learned by quarterbacking COULD be beneficial for those who are trained to serve and protect. however, when, according to some reports, one aggressor walks behind an officer having lunch, who is minding their own business, and the aggressor blatantly and in cold blood shots them point blank ~ murdering them, let the police worry about improving their tactics for eating lunch.

    their improving tactics is of no interest to me and actually scares me as their tactics become more fanatical whenever they encounter citizens legally carrying their firearms!

    but to make Monday quarterbacking discussions of what ifs, about Mr. Wilcox's situation and actions , w/o any type of direct observation 'video' causes ppl to interject their emotional bias and does not assist JQP who is carrying to protect themselves and family.

    always remember, JQP is not trained or armed or equipped with specialized equipment ~ so they are protected by body armor to protect themselves against errors of judgments when they encounter two + combatants, to protect, serve, ad nasum, the other citizens around them.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-09-2014 at 07:56 PM.
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