Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 42

Thread: Five dead in Las Vegas shooting

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SE, WI
    Posts
    7,318

    Five dead in Las Vegas shooting

    http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-...213257183.html

    Nothing would have prevented this tragedy.

    The attackers then headed to a nearby Walmart store, exchanging gunfire with and ultimately killing a civilian who was carrying a concealed weapon.
    I thought CCers had a tactical advantage?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,147
    Legally armed citizens carrying a concealed weapons have a tactical advantage perhaps out weighed by strategic responsibilities.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-...213257183.html

    Nothing would have prevented this tragedy.



    I thought CCers had a tactical advantage?
    With it still being very early in the investigation I'd take anything on the news other then the number of victims with a grain of salt. After watching the press conference the sheriff said there was no confirmation at this time that anyone other then officers fired on the suspects. This article also leaves out the exchange between officers and the suspects in Wal-Mart.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    united states
    Posts
    627
    According to that article, the CCer exchanged fire with the suspects. To me that says it didnt matter his mode of carry.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,147
    One unconfirmed report is that the two exchanged gunfire with a citizen who was carrying a concealed weapon, and that one of the shooters was injured. Police confirm that at least one civilian at the Walmart was shot and killed. A law enforcement official said the victim was a woman. http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/la...-police-ambush
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  6. #6
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828
    Quote Originally Posted by vegaspassat View Post
    According to that article, the CCer exchanged fire with the suspects. To me that says it didnt matter his mode of carry.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
    And, if the report is true that this one lawful firearm possessor engaged 2 armed individuals---- HE IS A HERO! and should be identified as such! Truely, tragic he lost his life, but since the 2 BG's had not only the weapons used to execute the 2 LEOs but also the LEO's firearms---- HIS ACTIONS DID SAVE MANY LIVES!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  7. #7
    Regular Member Craftymommy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    172
    According to the news conference I watched on channel 8, the sheriff did not confirm any citizens there with a ccw that exchanged gun fire. Only that the victim in walmart was female and they have not confirmed her identity. The officers have been identified as Alan Beck and Igor Soldo.

  8. #8
    Regular Member garand_guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    495
    This is why we carry guns. Hopefully, the investigation will show that an armed citizen's intervention forced the shooters to change their plans and commit suicide before killing anyone else.
    Nevada Carry and Frontier Carry

    Helpful guide to gun laws in the Intermountain West

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    united states
    Posts
    627
    10 dollars says the sheriff tries to tie it in with oath keepers and/or the bundy militia

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,147
    Quote Originally Posted by vegaspassat View Post
    10 dollars says the sheriff tries to tie it in with oath keepers and/or the bundy militia
    BigEglStyl - Yesterday at 11:40 PM - 2 words.....Sovereign Citizen.....homeland security better get on these folks with a vengence
    http://www.jsonline.com/news/usandwo...262314071.html
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    united states
    Posts
    627
    In an instance like this, I can't help but wonder.... being that these two killers were targeting police, I wonder if this could have been an instance where OC made a person more likely to become a target.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    united states
    Posts
    627
    Granted, this is certainly a unique situation

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SE, WI
    Posts
    7,318
    Quote Originally Posted by vegaspassat View Post
    In an instance like this, I can't help but wonder.... being that these two killers were targeting police, I wonder if this could have been an instance where OC made a person more likely to become a target.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
    I don't think it would have mattered. Most people don't carry. Do you think they'd try to target a gun store?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    united states
    Posts
    627
    And there it is http://m.reviewjournal.com/news/shoo...indiana-couple

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    881
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    And, if the report is true that this one lawful firearm possessor engaged 2 armed individuals---- HE IS A HERO! and should be identified as such! Truely, tragic he lost his life, but since the 2 BG's had not only the weapons used to execute the 2 LEOs but also the LEO's firearms---- HIS ACTIONS DID SAVE MANY LIVES!
    This will be taken by the liberals to prove arming citizens does nothing to protect people. *deep sigh* We have another potential CT or NY 'SAFE' Act on our hands? hopefully in NV there are enough patriots to thwart such movements.

    Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

    Conservative Broadcast || Google Plus profile

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,147
    the flag is named for christopher gadsden a revolutionary war general who designed it. it has recently come back in vogue as an adopted symbol of the american tea party movement.
    Quote Originally Posted by vegaspassat View Post
    .
    Last edited by Nightmare; 06-09-2014 at 01:16 PM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  17. #17
    Regular Member SharpShootur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Posts
    135
    The officers form of carry had NOTHING to do with being targets. Think about it. If you're one of these nut jobs that want to do a killing spree, you find a large group of unarmed people. However, if you go to the location, find a POLICE SQUAD CAR, and then find UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICERS having lunch inside the nearby restaurant, knowing they will IMMEDIATELY intervene, and thwart your plans of genocide, what do you do? Obviously, you take out your threats. In this instance, if there were OCers/CCers eating, this more than likely wouldn't have gone down this way. Why? Because the OCer/CCer wear plain clothes. Furthermore, they don't drive police vehicles that stand out in a sea of other multicolored parked cars in a parking lot. The shooters would have just proceeded to Walmart and started the spree...until the OCers/CCers got whiff of the situation and intervened. And the OCers/CCers would have saved the day!

    Unfortunately, there were NO armed citizens to stop the madness (see report http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-...213257183.html ). However, the police did arrive in a timely fashion and engaged the psychos. One psycho murdered by his accomplice and then the accomplice committing suicide.

  18. #18
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,271
    Quote Originally Posted by garand_guy View Post
    This is why we carry guns. Hopefully, the investigation will show that an armed citizen's intervention forced the shooters to change their plans and commit suicide before killing anyone else.
    I'm not so sure about that, they did not kill anyone else in the restaurant, and from what I understand told the patrons to get out. IMO if the CCer had stayed out of it there would only be four dead. While it was heroic, I would not do it, even carrying open, unless they fired or were about to fire upon me.

    A revolution usually is overturning government, and their agents, the actions are usually claimed for the people.

    I do not see this as a spree, but an intentional targeting of government agents(police officers).
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-09-2014 at 01:38 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by SharpShootur View Post
    ...Unfortunately, there were NO armed citizens to stop the madness (see report http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-...213257183.html ). However, the police did arrive in a timely fashion and engaged the psychos. One psycho murdered by his accomplice and then the accomplice committing suicide.
    The killed bystander, Joseph Wilcox, 31, is now being identified as carrying a legal concealed weapon and confronting the male suspect. His tactics did not work, and he was killed by the female suspect behind him that he may not have known was involved at the time. It is unclear still whether or not he fired a shot. It is also unclear whether this intervention saved other lives, which it very likely did.
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-09-2014 at 03:18 PM. Reason: correct first name of victim
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  20. #20
    Regular Member z28power's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    143
    That article highlights a great example of gun control laws doing nothing, since criminals are intent on breaking laws. The article states he was turned away at the Bundy protest for being a felon. So really he shouldn't have been able to purchase/own ANY of these firearms... right?

    Also, it appears very likley the bystander saved people's lives by likely injuring Jared before the situation escalated further, as it was stated they were intent on a standoff with the Police & death by cop. Plans appear to have changed after this confrontation.
    Last edited by z28power; 06-09-2014 at 01:51 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,192
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    The killed bystander, James Wilcox, 31, is now being identified as carrying a legal concealed weapon and confronting the male suspect. His tactics did not work, and he was killed by the female suspect behind him that he may not have known was involved at the time. It is unclear still whether or not he fired a shot. It is also unclear whether this intervention saved other lives, which it very likely did.

    Two are a lot bigger threat then one and if they are working as a team even more so.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,271
    The couple had more plans to attack a courthouse, the civilian victim may have deterred that attack should the two used Walmart to get away. Which if it is as crowded as most Walmarts would be tactical place to do that. So he may have saved the lives at the courthouse, but I do not think from witness reports the two had any intention of killing what they saw as innocent citizens.

    What they did was very very wrong, but let's not stretch it past what it was, a attack on police officers. Which many criminals feel it is justified even though they do not justify harming the public at large. The problem we are having is that people are frustrated with police abuse, while most would never do such a thing, these two were nut cases. Only a small percentage of police are abusive, and that does not justify taking it out on good cops.

    The way to stop police abuse is not by violence, but pressure on the courts and the politicians.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Las Vegas,NV
    Posts
    367
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The couple had more plans to attack a courthouse, the civilian victim may have deterred that attack should the two used Walmart to get away. Which if it is as crowded as most Walmarts would be tactical place to do that. So he may have saved the lives at the courthouse, but I do not think from witness reports the two had any intention of killing what they saw as innocent citizens.

    What they did was very very wrong, but let's not stretch it past what it was, a attack on police officers. Which many criminals feel it is justified even though they do not justify harming the public at large. The problem we are having is that people are frustrated with police abuse, while most would never do such a thing, these two were nut cases. Only a small percentage of police are abusive, and that does not justify taking it out on good cops.

    The way to stop police abuse is not by violence, but pressure on the courts and the politicians.
    The courts and politicians rely on police authoritarianism, if not violence, to uphold the "system"; their livelihoods depend on it. The politicians rely on the "I'm a law-and-order, tough-on-crime, guy; so, re-elect me and I'll keep you safe." The judges rely on the same mindset to get appointed to the bench by the politicians or elected by the public.

    I am not saying all police officers are violent and/or authoritarian, or extreme. I certainly don't know if Officers Beck and Soldo were, nor do I have any reason to believe they were. However, it doesn't matter at this point. What matters is that two human beings, who I am sure helped/protected their fair share of people, were murdered. As police officers on the front line, and as human beings, they deserve our respect and regret for what happened to them, and their families.

    Mr. Wilcox also needs to be recognized for the bravery he demonstrated. The left and gun confiscation fascists will use this incident as another springboard to cry out for more "gun control" measures. However, Mr. Wilcox demonstrates to the sane that not every person outside law enforcement who carries a weapon in public is a threat to society, bound to start spraying bullets at innocent people in large crowds. The fact is that OCers and CCWers are law abiding, sane, responsible people, who not only carry to protect themselves and families, but to come to the aid of the public in times of need, and even to the aid of police officers. I hope that is the message that the public gets from this.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Las Vegas,NV
    Posts
    367
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    The killed bystander, Joseph Wilcox, 31, is now being identified as carrying a legal concealed weapon and confronting the male suspect. His tactics did not work, and he was killed by the female suspect behind him that he may not have known was involved at the time. It is unclear still whether or not he fired a shot. It is also unclear whether this intervention saved other lives, which it very likely did.
    MAC, I think you make an important point about tactics. It appears the killers had superior tactics: the male shooter openly carried his weapon, while the female shooter stayed back to ambush anyone who attempted to engage her partner. I read somewhere in the initial account that the female shooter approached the store pushing a shopping cart, while the male approached obviously armed. Very effective, and shrewd, tactics!

    I don't know what level of tactical training Mr. Wilcox had, if any. Would you say in your experience that most CCWers (and OCers for that matter) don't have the level of tactical training necessary to be effective in a situation like this one? Even so, would someone who had a good amount of tactical training have fared any better than Mr. Wilcox given the shrewdness of the shooters' tactics? What would have been better tactics for Mr. Wilcox, staying back and assessing the situation for a longer period of time, thus allowing the female to expose herself as an active shooter?
    Last edited by ed2276; 06-09-2014 at 06:39 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,865
    reality check...it is, as it always is with the sudden and violent loss of life with its many impacts to quite a few ppl, is a tragic environment made worse by the degradation of the officers' remains after they were murdered.

    to try and second guess Mr. Wilcox's actions w/o benefit of WM's cam and to rely on 'citizens' eye witness accounts leads to tremendous leap of faith(s) and impossible number of conclusions does Mr. Wilcox's memory an injustice, which will and can cause even more grief on his immediate family as they grapple with the ramification of his actions.

    this being the public forum it is, I would be disheartened to see a news article based on our learned supposition(s) what Mr. Wilcox should or should not have done or weather Mr. Wilcox should even have gotten involved in the first place or how many lives he might have saved as forum members Monday morning quarterback from afar.

    I am positive there will be some members whose bravado will speak out stating they would have done this or that or or or...

    just saying...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-09-2014 at 07:57 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •