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Five dead in Las Vegas shooting

JJxx101

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Jun 3, 2014
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11
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Las Vegas
http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-vegas-shooting-213257183.html

Nothing would have prevented this tragedy.



I thought CCers had a tactical advantage?

With it still being very early in the investigation I'd take anything on the news other then the number of victims with a grain of salt. After watching the press conference the sheriff said there was no confirmation at this time that anyone other then officers fired on the suspects. This article also leaves out the exchange between officers and the suspects in Wal-Mart.
 

vegaspassat

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Feb 2, 2011
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united states
According to that article, the CCer exchanged fire with the suspects. To me that says it didnt matter his mode of carry.

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JoeSparky

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Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
According to that article, the CCer exchanged fire with the suspects. To me that says it didnt matter his mode of carry.

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And, if the report is true that this one lawful firearm possessor engaged 2 armed individuals---- HE IS A HERO! and should be identified as such! Truely, tragic he lost his life, but since the 2 BG's had not only the weapons used to execute the 2 LEOs but also the LEO's firearms---- HIS ACTIONS DID SAVE MANY LIVES!
 

Craftymommy

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Mar 15, 2014
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Nevada
According to the news conference I watched on channel 8, the sheriff did not confirm any citizens there with a ccw that exchanged gun fire. Only that the victim in walmart was female and they have not confirmed her identity. The officers have been identified as Alan Beck and Igor Soldo.
 

garand_guy

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Feb 15, 2014
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Nevada
This is why we carry guns. Hopefully, the investigation will show that an armed citizen's intervention forced the shooters to change their plans and commit suicide before killing anyone else.
 

vegaspassat

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10 dollars says the sheriff tries to tie it in with oath keepers and/or the bundy militia

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vegaspassat

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In an instance like this, I can't help but wonder.... being that these two killers were targeting police, I wonder if this could have been an instance where OC made a person more likely to become a target.

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protias

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Dec 18, 2008
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SE, WI
In an instance like this, I can't help but wonder.... being that these two killers were targeting police, I wonder if this could have been an instance where OC made a person more likely to become a target.

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I don't think it would have mattered. Most people don't carry. Do you think they'd try to target a gun store?
 

rightwinglibertarian

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Mar 22, 2014
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Seattle WA
And, if the report is true that this one lawful firearm possessor engaged 2 armed individuals---- HE IS A HERO! and should be identified as such! Truely, tragic he lost his life, but since the 2 BG's had not only the weapons used to execute the 2 LEOs but also the LEO's firearms---- HIS ACTIONS DID SAVE MANY LIVES!
This will be taken by the liberals to prove arming citizens does nothing to protect people. *deep sigh* We have another potential CT or NY 'SAFE' Act on our hands? hopefully in NV there are enough patriots to thwart such movements.

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SharpShootur

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Aug 13, 2013
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131
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Las Vegas, Nevada
The officers form of carry had NOTHING to do with being targets. Think about it. If you're one of these nut jobs that want to do a killing spree, you find a large group of unarmed people. However, if you go to the location, find a POLICE SQUAD CAR, and then find UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICERS having lunch inside the nearby restaurant, knowing they will IMMEDIATELY intervene, and thwart your plans of genocide, what do you do? Obviously, you take out your threats. In this instance, if there were OCers/CCers eating, this more than likely wouldn't have gone down this way. Why? Because the OCer/CCer wear plain clothes. Furthermore, they don't drive police vehicles that stand out in a sea of other multicolored parked cars in a parking lot. The shooters would have just proceeded to Walmart and started the spree...until the OCers/CCers got whiff of the situation and intervened. And the OCers/CCers would have saved the day!

Unfortunately, there were NO armed citizens to stop the madness (see report http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-vegas-shooting-213257183.html ). However, the police did arrive in a timely fashion and engaged the psychos. One psycho murdered by his accomplice and then the accomplice committing suicide.
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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This is why we carry guns. Hopefully, the investigation will show that an armed citizen's intervention forced the shooters to change their plans and commit suicide before killing anyone else.

I'm not so sure about that, they did not kill anyone else in the restaurant, and from what I understand told the patrons to get out. IMO if the CCer had stayed out of it there would only be four dead. While it was heroic, I would not do it, even carrying open, unless they fired or were about to fire upon me.

A revolution usually is overturning government, and their agents, the actions are usually claimed for the people.

I do not see this as a spree, but an intentional targeting of government agents(police officers).
 
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MAC702

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Jul 31, 2011
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6,331
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Nevada
...Unfortunately, there were NO armed citizens to stop the madness (see report http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-vegas-shooting-213257183.html ). However, the police did arrive in a timely fashion and engaged the psychos. One psycho murdered by his accomplice and then the accomplice committing suicide.

The killed bystander, Joseph Wilcox, 31, is now being identified as carrying a legal concealed weapon and confronting the male suspect. His tactics did not work, and he was killed by the female suspect behind him that he may not have known was involved at the time. It is unclear still whether or not he fired a shot. It is also unclear whether this intervention saved other lives, which it very likely did.
 
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z28power

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Mar 4, 2014
Messages
142
Location
Las Vegas
That article highlights a great example of gun control laws doing nothing, since criminals are intent on breaking laws. The article states he was turned away at the Bundy protest for being a felon. So really he shouldn't have been able to purchase/own ANY of these firearms... right?

Also, it appears very likley the bystander saved people's lives by likely injuring Jared before the situation escalated further, as it was stated they were intent on a standoff with the Police & death by cop. Plans appear to have changed after this confrontation.
 
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Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
The killed bystander, James Wilcox, 31, is now being identified as carrying a legal concealed weapon and confronting the male suspect. His tactics did not work, and he was killed by the female suspect behind him that he may not have known was involved at the time. It is unclear still whether or not he fired a shot. It is also unclear whether this intervention saved other lives, which it very likely did.


Two are a lot bigger threat then one and if they are working as a team even more so.
 

WalkingWolf

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The couple had more plans to attack a courthouse, the civilian victim may have deterred that attack should the two used Walmart to get away. Which if it is as crowded as most Walmarts would be tactical place to do that. So he may have saved the lives at the courthouse, but I do not think from witness reports the two had any intention of killing what they saw as innocent citizens.

What they did was very very wrong, but let's not stretch it past what it was, a attack on police officers. Which many criminals feel it is justified even though they do not justify harming the public at large. The problem we are having is that people are frustrated with police abuse, while most would never do such a thing, these two were nut cases. Only a small percentage of police are abusive, and that does not justify taking it out on good cops.

The way to stop police abuse is not by violence, but pressure on the courts and the politicians.
 

ed2276

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Nov 29, 2011
Messages
366
Location
Las Vegas,NV
The couple had more plans to attack a courthouse, the civilian victim may have deterred that attack should the two used Walmart to get away. Which if it is as crowded as most Walmarts would be tactical place to do that. So he may have saved the lives at the courthouse, but I do not think from witness reports the two had any intention of killing what they saw as innocent citizens.

What they did was very very wrong, but let's not stretch it past what it was, a attack on police officers. Which many criminals feel it is justified even though they do not justify harming the public at large. The problem we are having is that people are frustrated with police abuse, while most would never do such a thing, these two were nut cases. Only a small percentage of police are abusive, and that does not justify taking it out on good cops.

The way to stop police abuse is not by violence, but pressure on the courts and the politicians.

The courts and politicians rely on police authoritarianism, if not violence, to uphold the "system"; their livelihoods depend on it. The politicians rely on the "I'm a law-and-order, tough-on-crime, guy; so, re-elect me and I'll keep you safe." The judges rely on the same mindset to get appointed to the bench by the politicians or elected by the public.

I am not saying all police officers are violent and/or authoritarian, or extreme. I certainly don't know if Officers Beck and Soldo were, nor do I have any reason to believe they were. However, it doesn't matter at this point. What matters is that two human beings, who I am sure helped/protected their fair share of people, were murdered. As police officers on the front line, and as human beings, they deserve our respect and regret for what happened to them, and their families.

Mr. Wilcox also needs to be recognized for the bravery he demonstrated. The left and gun confiscation fascists will use this incident as another springboard to cry out for more "gun control" measures. However, Mr. Wilcox demonstrates to the sane that not every person outside law enforcement who carries a weapon in public is a threat to society, bound to start spraying bullets at innocent people in large crowds. The fact is that OCers and CCWers are law abiding, sane, responsible people, who not only carry to protect themselves and families, but to come to the aid of the public in times of need, and even to the aid of police officers. I hope that is the message that the public gets from this.
 

ed2276

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Las Vegas,NV
The killed bystander, Joseph Wilcox, 31, is now being identified as carrying a legal concealed weapon and confronting the male suspect. His tactics did not work, and he was killed by the female suspect behind him that he may not have known was involved at the time. It is unclear still whether or not he fired a shot. It is also unclear whether this intervention saved other lives, which it very likely did.

MAC, I think you make an important point about tactics. It appears the killers had superior tactics: the male shooter openly carried his weapon, while the female shooter stayed back to ambush anyone who attempted to engage her partner. I read somewhere in the initial account that the female shooter approached the store pushing a shopping cart, while the male approached obviously armed. Very effective, and shrewd, tactics!

I don't know what level of tactical training Mr. Wilcox had, if any. Would you say in your experience that most CCWers (and OCers for that matter) don't have the level of tactical training necessary to be effective in a situation like this one? Even so, would someone who had a good amount of tactical training have fared any better than Mr. Wilcox given the shrewdness of the shooters' tactics? What would have been better tactics for Mr. Wilcox, staying back and assessing the situation for a longer period of time, thus allowing the female to expose herself as an active shooter?
 
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