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Thread: N.R.A. rolls back criticism of Open Carry

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    N.R.A. rolls back criticism of Open Carry

    The National Rifle Association has rolled back an earlier statement criticizing "open carry" rallies in Texas

    Associated Press

    HOUSTON — The National Rifle Association has rolled back an earlier statement criticizing "open carry" rallies in Texas in which gun rights advocates have brought military-style assault rifles into public places.

    Chris Cox, the executive director of the group's lobbying arm, said in an interview Tuesday on an NRA-hosted radio show that the statement was "a mistake" and that it was written by a staffer who was expressing his personal opinion.
    "The truth is, an alert went out that referred to this type of behavior as 'weird' or somehow not normal, and that was a mistake. It shouldn't have happened," said Cox, who added that the group "unequivocally" supports open carry laws.....................
    SEE More at link below..............

    http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...rry-criticism/
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    open carry laws.....................
    No. This is one of my biggest pet peeves... open carry laws, open carry laws, what laws? Laws tell you what you CAN'T do, there AREN'T laws, which is why its legal.

    </rant>

    On topic, glad they're at least pretending to come around. Time will tell.

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    Old news .. and other threads already exist ...

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    No. This is one of my biggest pet peeves... open carry laws, open carry laws, what laws? Laws tell you what you CAN'T do, there AREN'T laws, which is why its legal.

    </rant>

    On topic, glad they're at least pretending to come around. Time will tell.
    It's a "tell" on their part. It's like the guy who always rubs his left ear lobe when he's got a good hand at the poker table. They (NRA) want OC laws/permits so bad they can taste it! Once they can start raking in money from OC permit classes, they will be 100% behind OC! Until then, we are their red-headed step children and simply a bother to them.
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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Control is the rule for any organization or Government entity. They all fight for control and control is how they make money. I place the article to inform, and my disgust for the NRA has gone back for decades, they pick and choose which rights to defend. I dropped out of the NRA in the 1980s after getting tired of their duplicitous attitude. Also the Second Amendment doesn't need the NRA's approval, it is already the SUPREME law of the land.



    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    It's a "tell" on their part. It's like the guy who always rubs his left ear lobe when he's got a good hand at the poker table. They (NRA) want OC laws/permits so bad they can taste it! Once they can start raking in money from OC permit classes, they will be 100% behind OC! Until then, we are their red-headed step children and simply a bother to them.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Amazing, isn't it, how the press and anti gunners are so stupid that they wouldn't know after nearly a decade of this site being around that the NRA hates us, and only when it seems like the press is willing to acknowledge it would they change their minds? I don't know that words exist in any language to describe how idiotic that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Control is the rule for any organization or Government entity. They all fight for control and control is how they make money.
    True, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. We have seen it innumerable times from many gun rights orgs, and for that matter other groups of most types. Control, dominance, and power tends to be the end game of people who want to lead groups of often blindly loyal collectivists. They want it even though they likely agree on most things with the people they are taking on, and there is little they will stop at to get it. They have no issue on a moral level with using bullying, legal (lawsuits and laws to impede us have both happened) or maybe even physical threats, taking credit for the ideas and work of others, these are all seen as fair game. Sacrificing the membership of useful people who don't fit into their collectivist idea of how things should be is SOP. This effect can have a wide range with crazy leaders, from bullying people on internet forums, all the way to the likes of Joseph Stalin slaughtering his enemies and own people by the tens of millions. The sort of people who go along with such nonsense tend to place their pride in it, and follow their leaders with vigor. It's a remarkably destructive effect when not kept in check, and the NRA is a very good example of how problematic and long lasting it can be.
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-11-2014 at 11:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    It's a "tell" on their part. It's like the guy who always rubs his left ear lobe when he's got a good hand at the poker table. They (NRA) want OC laws/permits so bad they can taste it! Once they can start raking in money from OC permit classes, they will be 100% behind OC! Until then, we are their red-headed step children and simply a bother to them.
    You do know the NRA does not actually make money from the CPL classes right?

    The NRA designs a curriculum, they certify instructors, and sell supplies, but the instructors DO NOT work for the NRA, they are independent, the NRA does not get the fee, a portion of the fee, or a kick back, at most they make a couple dollars from the supply order that is it.

    <----- NRA Instructor.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Does the NRA charge for materials used in said classes...YES! So they do in fact profit from the classes. Correct?
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Free, pray tell, if you go to the NRA's course portal, could you please point out from the NRA's course overviews which states...'provides citizens with the appropriate information to get their CPL, CCW, CHP, ad nausm' ?

    for the majority of the states, the NRA's instructor cadre is but a small percentage of the state's individuals who are authorized to train their citizens and issue certificates for the citizen to apply for the concealed firearm permit. you have LEs, military members, and others can facilitating the state mandated training.

    remember the organization's political branch, founded in the early 70s is the outspoken group while the training group chugs on.

    and a foot note to small/arms/collector, the same goes for you...i believe you will also discern the NRA does not have a firearm training course specifically purposed to train citizens for receiving their CHP, CCW, CPL, etc.

    BTW, Small/arms/collector, et al., the PPI/O Home as a tactical course normally doesn't count per se.

    the supplies, or so i have been informed, is a breakeven enterprise.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-13-2014 at 06:49 PM.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    It has been a while since I read through the instructor materials, but as I recall, the NRA doesn't even specify that the PPITH course is sufficient to prepare people to carry, because as fighting and conflict psychology/deescalation tactics go, it blatantly isn't, and it doesn't even try to do what it can to go in that direction with the time allotted, rather it prohibits teaching people in a realistic way. And yet the NRA allows that silly course to go on being used to certify people all over the country without any real efforts to correct it.

    I am of course not a in favor of ANY licensing schemes, but if the NRA wants to roll with the concept of statism, they could at least try to do a better job of it.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    first, lets clarify something since everyone is missing my point...

    yes i am sure there are exceptions to this statement, but they are in the minority, it is the state's statute(s), not the NRA course material which mandates what conceal carry training criteria is utilized for it's citizens to be certified. for example, NM and NC statutes mandate the state sanctioned conceal carry instructor must develop their own training plans, submit them to the state regulatory body, once approved by the body, the instructor must only follow their state approved training plans to train state citizens. NM the instructor must annual resubmit their lesson plans and in NC during instructor renewal, the instructor certifies they are following their approved plan.

    to take the NRA's PPIH (8 hours ~ 100 rounds), the student is normally mandated to take the basic course (8 hours + 50 rounds) or meet for extra range time + rounds) to provide evidence the student has the appropriate shooting skills. PPOH (14 hours + 250 rounds) the student is mandated to have completed PPIH ~ no skill qualifier.

    the time, rounds, and cost alone to complete these courses to meet mandated state training criteria would inhibit most, but the most diehard citizen from ever getting their conceal permit.

    the only entities getting fatter is the state's coffers who see this approach as a gold mine as a revenue generator where ppl do not complain.

    i stand in the choir box wishing there were no permits needed, nationally, to CC/OC. i seriously doubt that will occur in my life time especially with current disjointed strategies by individual groups, both state level and nationally, being presented across the country.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-13-2014 at 10:28 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    If you review this and other states laws, it is abundantly clear that they designed it so that it would be logistically difficult for someone other than the NRA to come up with a program which satisfies the requirements of the laws. They do relatively little along the lines of actual pro gun work, but they sure do excel at helping require statist classes! Poke around the web, and you will find small "national" training companies which exist to compete with the NRA by swimming through the laws the NRA lobbied for and got passed.

    I am not in the mood to go into great detail, but the fact of the matter is that 5 hours with 100 rounds of 9mm, 200 rounds of .22, and airsofts is enough time to get the basics of efficiently using handguns to fight. This of course requires a ratio of one or two students per instructor with new shooters, which I am sure is one of the reasons why it isn't done. 7 more hours after that can be used to teach someone the material taught in the classroom portion of PPITH, with the added bonus of going in depth with conflict communications and psychology, and using videos of actual fights to show it.

    Is 12 hours of time too much to bother if you're going to take on the immensely large responsibility of carrying a deadly weapon? I can't tell whether the NRA thinks so or not, because they sure don't have much to say about it publicly. Me, I'd prefer a more dangerous world where liberty prevails rather than the government telling people what they have to do, but certainly I would suggest to people that they take a lot more time to become proficient than they will spend in their CPL classes.
    Last edited by Michigander; 06-13-2014 at 11:27 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    You do know the NRA does not actually make money from the CPL classes right?

    The NRA designs a curriculum, they certify instructors, and sell supplies, but the instructors DO NOT work for the NRA, they are independent, the NRA does not get the fee, a portion of the fee, or a kick back, at most they make a couple dollars from the supply order that is it.

    <----- NRA Instructor.
    The NRA charges instructors for their certification and renewals of such. We instructors also spend a bit of money with them on materials and other gear.

    They also benefit highly from the name recognition that goes with being the go-to instruction certification corporation recognized by the state.

    To say the NRA does not make money from CPL classes is misleading.
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-14-2014 at 01:44 AM.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    The NRA charges instructors for their certification and renewals of such. We instructors also spend a bit of money with them on materials and other gear.

    They also benefit highly from the name recognition that goes with being the go-to instruction certification corporation recognized by the state.

    To say the NRA does not make money from CPL classes is misleading.
    ^^^This. Sorry SAC - they make money & so do the states (via required training certs needed) from NRA training. Not busting your balls, I know you to be a good guy.
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    ^^^This. Sorry SAC - they make money & so do the states (via required training certs needed) from NRA training. Not busting your balls, I know you to be a good guy.
    Also, how many NRA members are instructors? They would have the incentive to vote for CC supporting leadership.
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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Maybe I am a simple man, but the NRA should promote ALL forms of (safe) carry since they benefit either way.




    Quote Originally Posted by ron73440 View Post
    Also, how many NRA members are instructors? They would have the incentive to vote for CC supporting leadership.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Free, pray tell, if you go to the NRA's course portal, could you please point out from the NRA's course overviews which states...'provides citizens with the appropriate information to get their CPL, CCW, CHP, ad nausm' ?

    for the majority of the states, the NRA's instructor cadre is but a small percentage of the state's individuals who are authorized to train their citizens and issue certificates for the citizen to apply for the concealed firearm permit. you have LEs, military members, and others can facilitating the state mandated training.

    remember the organization's political branch, founded in the early 70s is the outspoken group while the training group chugs on.

    and a foot note to small/arms/collector, the same goes for you...i believe you will also discern the NRA does not have a firearm training course specifically purposed to train citizens for receiving their CHP, CCW, CPL, etc.

    BTW, Small/arms/collector, et al., the PPI/O Home as a tactical course normally doesn't count per se.

    the supplies, or so i have been informed, is a breakeven enterprise.

    ipse
    As a CPL instructor I find the NRA is a good place to get the basic info. For most anything else though I use my own notes. The NRA stuff is also expensive.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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