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Thread: CCW holder killed in the Las Vegas shooting

  1. #1
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    CCW holder killed in the Las Vegas shooting

    Not sure if people knew, but the bystander who was at the Walmart after the two police officers were murdered was armed and engaged one of the suspects (the husband). Instead he was killed by the wife. He had a chance to get out safely but decided to draw his weapon. Not sure what I would have done in that situation. Perhaps he acted too quickly without assessing his surroundings?

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...hate/10261163/
    Last edited by jchen012; 06-12-2014 at 02:58 AM.

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Shouldn't this be in the Nevada subforums?
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
    1) Liberals never quit until they are satisfied.
    2) Liberals are never satisfied.

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    I thought this should be in the NV forums but then I realize that the politicians are going to make this a national issue. As for the OP question, I like to think that if this ever happens to me, the first thing I would do is check my area to confirm the situation and the hostiles.

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    Regular Member FMJ 911's Avatar
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    SA= Situational Awareness.

    Tactical Advantage is another good one to use, after awhile, it becomes second nature, and you do it without thinking.
    "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." George Patton

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    would YOU step up?

    Seriona has a good question. I, and my Sweet Baboo, have always been the ones to head to the gunfire, not away from it. Weather a vehicle accident or actual gunfire, I head into the mix.

    I have said this before, Citizenship is a Verb.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 06-12-2014 at 11:02 AM. Reason: usual
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    Shouldn't this be in the Nevada subforums?
    Probably.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Seriona has a good question. I, and my Sweet Baboo, have always been the ones to head to the gunfire, not away from it. Weather a vehicle accident or actual gunfire, I head into the mix.

    I have said this before, Citizenship is a Verb.
    +1

    I agree, I wasn't there so I don't know the situation the gentleman was in, that being said I would hope that I would have used my military and LE training to gain cover and concealment before confronting the bad guys. Again I wasn't there and I can't say what happened but I would rather go out defending myself and others than just being lead to slaughter; if the bad guy pointed his gun at him he only had seconds to respond to a deadly threat. I'm sure he didn't know if he was going to fire or not. He might have saved some lives or changed the bad guys plans, maybe even stalled them enough to confuse them.

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    From what I read the person could have left safely but chose to get into the mix. I made the decision that when I carry it is for the safety and security of myself and family. For everyone else, they should carry or choose something else to protect themselves, it isnt my responsibility, same as how my safety is not the leo's responsibility. If I was in the ccw-ers shoes, I would have gotten out but I applaud his effort to confront the danger.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madicarus View Post
    From what I read the person could have left safely but chose to get into the mix. I made the decision that when I carry it is for the safety and security of myself and family. For everyone else, they should carry or choose something else to protect themselves, it isnt my responsibility, same as how my safety is not the leo's responsibility. If I was in the ccw-ers shoes, I would have gotten out but I applaud his effort to confront the danger.
    My take also. Even if I would have stayed I would have stayed in the checkout line and observed first. At least there he had cash registers, and junk stands on both sides of him. It would have limited his vulnerability. But I am sure he was not thinking of that at the time. I have told my wife over and over again do not get involved unless it involves you. And even if I go down her first priority is to get away.

    Apparently they do not teach taking cover and remaining behind cover in CC classes.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-12-2014 at 12:59 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    I agree, WA allows the right to defend others which means that if I see someones life in danger, I can legally kill the attacker. Personally, I am not going to go and solve the problem myself unless of course that problems comes to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ 911 View Post
    SA= Situational Awareness.

    Tactical Advantage is another good one to use, after awhile, it becomes second nature, and you do it without thinking.
    Hard to critique a guy when the circumstances are not fully known. But one should always be aware of where cover is...

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Hard to critique a guy when the circumstances are not fully known. But one should always be aware of where cover is...
    We know from his friend with him they were in the checkout lanes, and that his friend left and is alive. We know he left the cover of the checkout lane trying a tactical maneuver that backfired. Even a police officer would or should seek cover and access the situation first, remember officer safety comes first. Our safety should also come first, it is waste that he died and IMO did not accomplish his goal to stop the man.

    I would bet there were more concealed carriers there than just him. Usually when I am in Wally World I can spot several, sometimes up to half a dozen. It would appear that they decided to keep in their pants.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Spending some time playing paintball doesn't hurt for this kind of thing. It helps to teach situational and tactical awareness, while under simulated fire. The physical impact of the paintballs provides a sense of realism that airsoft and laser tag generally don't.

    I don't know ANY paintball players who would break cover like that guy did. Always remember to look both ways before crossing the battlespace.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Citizenship is a Verb.
    Americans don't like verbs.


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    I think this situation was very unfortunate. Most of the time, a mass shooter is a lone wolf and as such, acts alone. It's an easy mistake to make assuming you see only one bad guy. The bad wife was "concealed" and only engaged when the CWP holder went after her husband.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmariner99 View Post
    I think this situation was very unfortunate. Most of the time, a mass shooter is a lone wolf and as such, acts alone. It's an easy mistake to make assuming you see only one bad guy. The bad wife was "concealed" and only engaged when the CWP holder went after her husband.
    But see this guy was not a mass shooter, he was a cop killer, and the private citizen did not know that. The shooter could have been just somebody off their meds, shooting in the ceiling was not a threat without knowledge of the prior killing. If it was a mass shooter he would not told people to leave and his first shot would have been in an innocent victim instead of the ceiling. The shooters had plenty of time to shoot more civilians, yet they didn't and kept telling people to leave. While they were wrong, very very wrong, it is clear their beef was with government not on the people in general.

    However brave the hero was, he is a dead hero that did not need to die. IMO his death was in vain. Had he left the outcome would have been the same. One bullet hardly slowed or deterred the two wackos.

    Not trying to disparage the man, just that if his death should do anything it should bring some thought to those who carry how to stay alive, and when to get involved.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-12-2014 at 03:54 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Americans don't like verbs.

    Well-played, sir.

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    I can legally kill the attacker.
    You mean you can legally use deadly force. We do not shoot in order to kill; we shoot in order to stop the threat. That distinction is vital.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    You mean you can legally use deadly force. We do not shoot in order to kill; we shoot in order to stop the threat. That distinction is vital.
    Yeah man, only the .gov can legally kill.

    They are really, really good at it and they hate competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    You mean you can legally use deadly force. We do not shoot in order to kill; we shoot in order to stop the threat. That distinction is vital.
    I do not care for the political correctness. I will kill if my hand is forced/

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    I do not care for the political correctness. I will kill if my hand is forced/
    Political correctness has nothing to do with it.

    Our INTENT is to stop. We just use "deadly force" to do it, and it may kill, but would be justified if it did.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Political correctness has nothing to do with it.

    Our INTENT is to stop. We just use "deadly force" to do it, and it may kill, but would be justified if it did.
    Well said. Difference between aggressor and victim/defender.

    "I shot him in the face because I was scared" is different then "I drew and shot center mass to stop him from attacking me"


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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    I do not care for the political correctness. I will kill if my hand is forced/
    You've completely misunderstood. There was nothing politically correct about what I said. Only a sociopath has the objective of killing. The purpose of employing deadly force is to stop the offense or threat of offense against liberty, when justified. Whether the offender dies as a result of the deadly force is a curious detail of the incident.

    I think you need to reevaluate your purpose for carrying. It sounds like you might harbor a vigilante fantasy. Go in front of a jury (and if you kill someone, even in self-defense, you will) and they'll crucify you for your attitude.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    I agree, WA allows the right to defend others which means that if I see someones life in danger, I can legally kill the attacker. Personally, I am not going to go and solve the problem myself unless of course that problems comes to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    You mean you can legally use deadly force. We do not shoot in order to kill; we shoot in order to stop the threat. That distinction is vital.
    This is easy for you to say. This is not always as easy to live with. Defending yourself is vital, but taking a life has repercussions that last years and years. The legal system will take you for a ride first if you have not been injured. After that it will be your heart/brain that will have to deal with a death. I hear a lot of people saying "I will kill" but not any who have said "I have killed". I do not recommend looking for the experience, training will win out at the end of the day and you may survive, but it will come with baggage.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    This is easy for you to say. This is not always as easy to live with. Defending yourself is vital, but taking a life has repercussions that last years and years. The legal system will take you for a ride first if you have not been injured. After that it will be your heart/brain that will have to deal with a death. I hear a lot of people saying "I will kill" but not any who have said "I have killed". I do not recommend looking for the experience, training will win out at the end of the day and you may survive, but it will come with baggage.

    Well said!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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