()pen(arry
Regular Member
How does what you wrote respond to what you quoted? What part of what I wrote has anything to do with shot placement? You're either willfully obtuse or helplessly obtuse. I'll let you pick.
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CCW holder killed in the Las Vegas shooting
- Thread starter jchen012
- Start date
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Let me get this straight, you consider just a shot in the air to be a threat that requires deadly force?
Like when somebody has a ND at say a gun show you are going to go postal on them?
The man shot into the ceiling NOT at or even pointed at anyone, then he said "get out", not even get out or I am going to kill you. He did not harm any civilian other than the dead hero. If the hero had kept it in his pants he would be alive, and the outcome the same.
Sometimes being brave is really really stupid, and can endanger others lives. You endanger mine by playing hero, YOU become the threat!
The mere act of discharging a firearm is not a threat. I would rather be surrounded by smart cowards than dumb heroes.
Some carriers have fantasies of shooting a bad guy, and it is really disturbing. Remember this guy as whacked out as he was thought he was striking a blow for the people. In his tiny mind he was the hero.
What happens when somebody has a fantasy of killing another as a hero and the fantasy never reveals itself? They shoot up a gun free zone.
Like when somebody has a ND at say a gun show you are going to go postal on them?
The man shot into the ceiling NOT at or even pointed at anyone, then he said "get out", not even get out or I am going to kill you. He did not harm any civilian other than the dead hero. If the hero had kept it in his pants he would be alive, and the outcome the same.
Sometimes being brave is really really stupid, and can endanger others lives. You endanger mine by playing hero, YOU become the threat!
The mere act of discharging a firearm is not a threat. I would rather be surrounded by smart cowards than dumb heroes.
Some carriers have fantasies of shooting a bad guy, and it is really disturbing. Remember this guy as whacked out as he was thought he was striking a blow for the people. In his tiny mind he was the hero.
What happens when somebody has a fantasy of killing another as a hero and the fantasy never reveals itself? They shoot up a gun free zone.
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EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
Excuse me, I was talking to the nice young salesman about this TV, will you please go discharge your firearm in a non threatening manner on aisle 6 please?
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
There are two kinds of lunatics, those that shoot guns into the ceiling, and those that want to play hero. The hero was more of a threat to the civilians than the two who shot the police. Clearly the civilians were in no danger so they were not a threat to them. And the hero had no knowledge of the two police officers shot.
Just a suggestion but replace your fantasies of being a hero with living to a ripe old age. Carrying a gun other than self protection AS A LAST RESORT, is like committing suicide by machismo.
Shooting a gun is NOT a threat unless you are being shot at. I have stated this before, if some hero decides to be macho man and I am in the line of fire that hero is the threat, and I will use force to stop the threat.
You wanna play cop, then continue your attempts to get on a department. Other than that leave the hero stuff to the cops.
BTW when you go to the interview, keep the hero stuff to yourself if you want to get hired.
Seriona
Regular Member
The point I am making is that if someone aims a firearm at me, I will not stop myself from trying to kill the person and I don't care what people think. I am not carrying a firearm to be a hero, I am doing it for a constitutional purpose as well as a defensive roll. I know i am not stupid, an a$$hole who fires into the sky and tells people to leave will allow me to leave, but if someone shoots at me, I will return fire.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I agree with this except for using the word 'kill' it is just a wise step to use the word 'stop' instead. Though deadly force can result in death, that is on the threat.
Added measures would be if possible observe and access before leaping, and never leave cover, and never move towards the threat.
I am just guessing, but moving towards a threat is pretty common on video games, only in real lifer there is no reset and you only get one life.
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I don't know. Telling the Internet that your INTENTION is TO KILL a threat isn't exactly smart, either.
And you are literally betting your life that that person who fires into the ceiling is going to just let you leave. This is a forum dedicated primarily to open carriers. What if halfway through your leaving with the crowd is when he finally sees your gun? While OC didn't start this altercation, or play a role in it up to this point, it certainly might now.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I thought about this, and I would have ran the opposite direction of the threat, if the Walmart there is like the rest of the supercenters the cash registers are between the doors. The asshat fired from my understanding was at the doors. Running through the clothing isles would not only have provided cover in that he would have to have hit a moving target with limited visual. That many clothes would have been very effective for slowing bullets.
When I am out, just like driving I always plan escape routes. Even if I was to engage the threat I would have not left cover what ever cover there is. And the cash registers are very good cover. Also if that Walmart was like others it was packed with people, considering tunnel vision it is unlikely the AH would have noticed a gun openly carried. This guy got shot because he approached the AH without cover.
And there may have been a open carrier there, they just boogied. I have no doubt there was more than one CC there. Walmart is actually a P-poor place for a active shooter. Lot's of cover, lot of places to hide, and several exits at least two in the front, one on the side in the garden dept. and probably two in the rear(back room). All the Walmarts I delivered to had two rear backroom exits and at least two loading bays. I am really baffled why the shooters did not exit the back doors, they wanted to die that day.
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Seriona
Regular Member
Saying that I should use the term deadly force vs kill is political correctness by definition because most of you believe that a jury would find me more guilty if I said kill vs deadly force, which you are correct. As Americans are lazy and don't care for most things. The point I am making is that if I draw my pistol on someone, I am going to do it if I have to kill. End of Story. I could care less what you people think of this. Most of you think I am crazy for saying this (which I don't find surprising).
kparker
Regular Member
The man shot into the ceiling NOT at or even pointed at anyone, then he said "get out"
Discharging a firearm where it's completely illegal to do so, then ordering everyone about? Yes, of course he's a threat. Two to center-of-mass, one to the head. What is wrong with you?
Discharging a firearm where it's completely illegal to do so, then ordering everyone about? Yes, of course he's a threat. Two to center-of-mass, one to the head. What is wrong with you?
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I have a IQ higher than a rodent, that is what is wrong with me. If the dead hero had kept it in his pants he would be alive today.
I wonder if he was following advice like yours before he made his fatal mistake. Hope some people here are smart enough to not make the same mistake from the same bad advice.
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MSG Laigaie
Campaign Veteran
If you have to fire upon a human the inevitable visit to a judge will occur. Now is the time to consider what you will say and how you will act. If you profess to be a "killer", the "other side" will glom onto that and paint you in a very, very bad light(Mr Zimmerman). If your "plan" is to "stop the threat" your intent is clearer. The first two rounds in my home defense shotgun are "rubber buck" for, as I will say to the judge, "Sir, I went out and hunted down a non-lethal round in order to "stop the threat" not "kill". The fact that RB rounds will shatter your chest at seven to ten feet is irrelevant, the intent is to be non-lethal. By "advertising" your intent to "kill" you increase the possibility of excessive jail time.
I was trained this way for many, many years and got quite good at it. Today, I cannot afford that much ammunition to train at that level. I no longer do the "head shot". Two, COM, will be a good start to stop a threat. Adding the HS may get an innocent injured and will be a hard target. With adrenalin pumping and stress increasing, that HS may be difficult and I do not recommend it to the untrained.
kparker
Regular Member
If the dead hero had kept it in his pants he would be alive today.
GMAB. You have no idea what the insane creep intended next.
GMAB. You have no idea what the insane creep intended next.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Neither did the hero! What we do know from witness accounts, and even his OWN friend. Is that the shooter shot into the ceiling, disturbing, but not a indication he was going to shoot anyone else. In fact he didn't he told people to get out, people getting out were not shot.
So while people were leaving unharmed our hero decides to play hero, leave his cover and approach the madman, gets shot by his wife. He very well could have caused other people to get shot in the crossfire. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN A WALMART?
The 'creep' told not once but several times for people to leave, just don't run. Maybe the 'creep' was afraid the cops might shoot fleeing citizens, like that has never happened. Oyee!
The guy screwed up! And it cost him his life. Now he was trying to be brave, though he was dumb, very very dumb. But because morons try to immortalize this guy and encourage others to be dumb heroes it is imperative to look at the facts before some extol the virtues of being a hero, while completely ignoring the glaring facts.
It was damn lucky the hero did not get others killed!
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OC for ME
Regular Member
Didn't the cops refer to him as a hero? I could be wrong about this.....thought I heard or read that.
The cops are giving him the benefit of the doubt, yes.
We don't know why he didn't get a shot off. Perhaps he had a shot available, but didn't have a clear target environment.
Even though he made tactical errors that he did not survive, he is a hero for being willing to do something in a sea of sheep. Things could just have likely gone the other way; there was no way to know if the sheep would not also be shot at.
Primus
Regular Member
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Of course they did, I would not expect anything less. Saying he died needlessly would have put a lot of hurt feelings on his family. The only reason I am telling the facts is that some people who carry have illusions of glory.
Unfortunately a single person cannot save everybody, even SWAT sometimes cannot save everybody. But getting killed by actually trying to be a hero saves nobody. That is what he did, he left cover to confront him up close and personal, like in a video game. He also tried to get on the LVPD AND was turned down.
I don't want the family to be hurt anymore than they are, hopefully they are not reading this. But if it was my son I would want the truth, not smoke blown up my arse. This preaching to be a hero, and considering people who use common sense cowards is absolute BS. We have a member here who did exactly that when he was called out after he let it be known that he has come to LEO rescue more than a couple times.
If the shooter had started shooting at people, some people would get shot. But the focus then, if to engage, to stop the threat from a tactical advantage. BUT by accounts of his own friends and others, I would have not expected it. If he was going to shoot people he would not have wasted a bullet on the ceiling, and THEN told people to leave.
TO EVERYBODY; Do Not Carry to be a cop, or a cop helper, a hero, stop crime, or any of that other nonsense. Carry to defend yourself and family, let the professionals be the heroes. Find COVER, and if behind cover do not leave it. Only engage when you have the advantage, not the shooter.
And remember if you were a cop, you would wait for backup.
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Again I would rather have a sheep next to me then a fool.
IIRC, the retired gov't employee in Michigan(?) a few years ago waited for a couple of teens who broke into his house. After shooting them with a .22, he finished them (or at least 1) with a head shot. The whole incident was a little off-kilter, and the follow-up shot(s) weren't helping his defense.