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Thread: get some training...and think

  1. #1
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    get some training...and think

    the two dirtbags in vegas that murdered those two cops were able to do so because they didn't display their weapons, that they were a potential threat.
    two soon to be dead dirtbags then went into walmart and displayed their intentions and that they were armed dirtbags.
    good person with a cc the decides to intervene in armed dirtbags heroic plan for confrontation with the mean, ol oppressive pd.
    good person pulls out his pistol and walks over to remove said armed dirtbag from the breathing population, only to get fatally shot by armed dirtbags armed sleazebucket girlfriend before he gets a chance to send armed dirtbag to his dirtnap.

    i've said it before many times, so here's yet another example--open carrying probably won't prevent crime. however, if a crime IS going down or going to go down and they are using firearms, them seeing you with yours will immediately make you their first target. this is an example of why i say if you are doing oc, it may make you a target for crime, no matter if you believe it or not.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1822387

    going wandering about with firearms doesn't make you competent, doesn't make you aware, doesn't make you tactically proficient, doesn't make you a good shot, etc.
    it just makes you out wandering around or shopping on private property with a firearm, which is pretty nothing to brag about.
    for people that do that ignore me or get mad at me.

    for good people, what happened to this other good person should be a good warning to you. just having a firearm doesn't mean anything. you should get some training in other than pulling a trigger at a range or shooting computer monitors at a dump. you can help stop crime and dirtbags acting out, playing a movie in their head, but only if you actually are able to and being shot outright doesn't count as helping.

  2. #2
    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
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    What!!!!!

    chowda, Open carrying prevents more crime than you can possibly imagine, no matter if you believe it or not (to quote your words.)

  3. #3
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I figured his whole post is nonsense, especially when he starts off early hinting that open carriers are potential threats.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowda View Post

    Part one- i've said it before many times, so here's yet another example--open carrying probably won't prevent crime.???

    Roman numeral II- however,them seeing you with yours will immediately make you their first target.

    area three- this is an example of why i say if you are doing oc, it may make you a target for crime, no matter if you believe it or not.
    1- Are you serious? This is incorrect and really not worth adressing

    2- 80% of the people I come in contact with are oblivious to the weapon with me standing right next to them, an amped up bad guy will not notice my holster. When they see my weapon, it will be to late for them.

    3- Now I will give you an impossible task......cite SOMETHING to verify your assumption.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  5. #5
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    1- Are you serious? This is incorrect and really not worth adressing

    2- 80% of the people I come in contact with are oblivious to the weapon with me standing right next to them, an amped up bad guy will not notice my holster. When they see my weapon, it will be to late for them.

    3- Now I will give you an impossible task......cite SOMETHING to verify your assumption.
    Msg with all due respect it seems the way you've worded this post contradicts itself. It may just he my interpretation but it seems your first line says that I does deter crime. The second line immediately says that the bad guy won't notice the gun.

    So how can it deter the bad guy (crime) if your admitting the bad guy WONT notice the gun?

    I'd like to submit its something in the middle. I'd say it deters the petty criminals. Maybe. The few that are calm and cool enough to notice and are just there for a quick buck. Then they realize not worth it and move onto easier prey.

    But to say it deters all crime. No way. To say it DOESN'T deter crime (like OP) also incorrect.

    Again, just my take. No offense is meant by picking your post. It was just the way it was written with the two points that stands out as contradictory to me.

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  6. #6
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    "Get some training" yes I agree. "And think" yes I agree.

    The silly notion that a guy walking towards your partner gun in hand(if that's how it happened) and you shoot him, somehow makes you a target for OCing- I don't agree with.
    There wasn't anybody OCing that I see. There were only armed threats
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Maybe the message was not worded as elegantly as it could have been to support Open Carry.

    But the point was well taken - the gun is not a magic talisman. Marksmanship by itself will not save you no matter how small your group is, or how quickly you can empty the cylinder/magazine to create it. Tactics (as played in IDPA/IPSIC/whatever games) can still get you killed. And even when you put them all together into a strategy it pays to be lucky more often that it pays to be good.

    I'm not going to repost my patented/copyrighted rant on the notion of "sheepdog to the world" - because if you have not read it you can probably guess what is is anyhow. There are times and places and reasons for extending self defense beyond the boundary of your skin or the perimeter of your family group, and often it is only the grace of someone making the effort (and occasionally the sacrifice) that more folks do not become fatalities. But unless you are willing to extend the odds that you will be making the sacrifice you need to assess and implement the best strategy possible.

    stay safe.
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  8. #8
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowda View Post
    i've said it before many times, so here's yet another example--open carrying probably won't prevent crime. however, if a crime IS going down or going to go down and they are using firearms, them seeing you with yours will immediately make you their first target. this is an example of why i say if you are doing oc, it may make you a target for crime, no matter if you believe it or not.
    This part is nonsense. People committing a "crime" are focused on the target of the crime, be it a bank teller or a clerk at a convenience store. It's not evidence that OC-ing can be immediately spotted, re-targeted, in range to be addressed or even successfully defused. In this instance it was mere accident that he was in the line of fire unknowingly. He was only detected when he shot.

    During the commission of a crime, the OC-er has the advantage of quicker deployment. This trumps the very, very slim potential to be the object of re-targeting.

    To be spotted the OC-er has to be in range, strong side facing, unobstructed view and the focus of attention. To prevent being isolated, the OC-er can seek cover, quickly deploy, return fire. This part takes mere seconds. Changing the decision and focus of the criminal's intent takes just as long or longer IF they spot the OC-er.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 06-15-2014 at 12:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    But the point was well taken - the gun is not a magic talisman.
    exactly.
    they got the drop and murdered two cops. the fact that they targeted those two and killed them w/o them being able defend themselves.
    so if two vegas cops with their duty belts on and pistols holstered were walked up to and killed outright like that, why would some fat kid with an ar around his neck in a toy department think he will fare any better?

    the good guy that drew his pistol was immediately ID'd (has a gun) and was murdered w/o firing a shot--and he had his pistol in his hand.

    people having a gun hanging off of them are no magic and you may not like this, but for any real bad people, could be targeted and if so, you will be targeted first, certainly immediately upon being spotted. and such dirtbags aren't going to announce themselves first. this is why, as a practical matter, i suggest people oc pistols and not long guns. i can spot you 100 yards away if you have a long gun hanging off of yourself. if i'm a bad guy and can't get to you, sneak up on you, i'll avoid you.

    if i'm on the left side of you and you have a pistol on your right hip, i look at you--nothing-then turn and scan other places for a potential threat to my bad-guyness.
    now you have the drop on me.
    capice? clearly proclaiming/demonstrating who/what you are to all known and unknown imo isn't the best idea.

    if you're playing paintball with other paintball people in a paintball arena, then yeah, run around w/your gun and suspect everyone. in the real world, walmart in this example, you can't do that as you may not know who is the bad guy, when or where. so instead of hanging out in stores or wandering around parks or the like with an ak around your neck, get a pistol and get practical training with realistic scenarios. it may not only save your life, but those of others.


    that's it.


    note: the preceeding in this post is not meant to be construed as a threat to anyone, real or imagined, or any actions, or anything else other than just sharing various ideas on any potential scenarios, which may or may not have happened, will happen, or ever happen.

  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Get your facts straight before embarassing yourself. The CCer was killed because he approached the dirtbag. According to police he never got a shot off, and no mention if he even drew his sidearm. If a OCer was in the checkout lane as he was, the dirtbag could NOT see his gun. A OCer carries to avert trouble not run towards it, and play hero. This is the problem with many CCers, they think they are civilian cop super hero save the day instead of carrying for their safety.

    Considering that OC is common in Nevada we do not know there were not any OCers there, they are common in our Walmart. I usually see at least one other than myself. Since the dirtbag was suffering from tunnel vision it is unlikely they would even noticed a OCer running towards the door in probably over 50 people heading towards the door.

    This guy got killed because he was playing hero, ya listening to that idiot Rob Pincus and Runaway Yeager. Plus he played combat video games where the player NEVER seeks cover and always approaches the threat. Had he been a OCer and on this site he would have got the correct advice not to engage unless you have to engage.

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    If a OCer was in the checkout lane as he was, the dirtbag could NOT see his gun.
    ummm, sure.










    are your eyes are that bad?

    oh well, i guess it's up to you to give up any element of surprise, so your equally bad eyes must not see anything wrong with that at all....

  12. #12
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowda View Post
    ummm, sure.










    are your eyes are that bad?

    oh well, i guess it's up to you to give up any element of surprise, so your equally bad eyes must not see anything wrong with that at all....
    Wow, you really are kinda slow hunh? In none of those pictures were they in the checkout lanes, in none of those pictures were they OCing handguns. And yes between the junk racks in the checkout lane all that would be visible would be their head if they are tall enough. If it had been a long gunner in the checkout lane they could have easily taken out the dirtbag without leaving the cover of the lane, if it was unavoidable. You really screwed the pooch with the above post, you must know nothing about the effective range of a handgun, and the effective range of a rifle. NOT to mention that the dirtbag was taken out with a~~wait for it~~a 5.56 rifle round. I am taking a leap that the officer with the rifle was open carrying it.



    Also to add, if I was ever in this situation I would damn well wish I had a good rifle over a handgun.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-15-2014 at 06:16 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Walmart check out lanes.



    Notice the height of the junk racks.

    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Walmart check out lanes.
    Notice the height of the junk racks.
    you sure are full of it...that is full of getting anything and everything to justify your position.
    i've seen lower and more dispersed, like the self check out ones. or what if i'm pushing out my cart full of beer when they came in? or what if i'm reading a gun mag there? or what if i just left the bathroom and am zipping up the fly i left open? or what if what if what if.....

    you'll just continue to hold tightly to your position....no matter what....in every situation....at any time...in every place......

    good luck with that. really.

  15. #15
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowda View Post
    --snipped--

    i've said it before many times, so here's yet another example--open carrying probably won't prevent crime. however, if a crime IS going down or going to go down and they are using firearms, them seeing you with yours will immediately make you their first target. this is an example of why i say if you are doing oc, it may make you a target for crime, no matter if you believe it or not.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1822387
    You paint with too broad a brush, there is much more evidence to the contrary.

    Yes, his reaction was tactically not sound, but hardly conclusive that is how others will react.

    We have a standard when discussing other gun rights groups: that no concerns other than there opposition to OC will be permitted here. Yet you come as an individual doing much the same thing on a cite devoted to OC.

    Half truths, inuendo, and playing the provocateur will not further the acceptance of your opinions. It will lead you down a path from which there is no return. Trust that more not need be said on the subject.
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