View Poll Results: Is it a violation of principle for an "anarchist" to accept employment with police

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Thread: Is it a violation of principle for an anarchist to be a cop

  1. #1
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Is it a violation of principle for an anarchist to be a cop

    Is it a violation of principles, morals or ethics for a Libertarian Anarchist to accept employment as a police officer, no matter the way in which he strives to perform his duties?
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Is it a violation of principles, morals or ethics for a Libertarian Anarchist to accept employment as a police officer, no matter the way in which he strives to perform his duties?
    What precisely concisely are the principles of the "Libertarian Anarchist" that are premises to the judgment that you ask?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I don't see why it would be so.

    Officers being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.*

    I'm merely paying Officer O'Flynn to do something that I don't have the time of inclination to do, just as I pay Avarice Disposal to haul my trash to the dump or Gypsy Lube to change the oil on my car when I don't have time.

    *Peelian Principal Number 7
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-18-2014 at 06:59 PM.

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    The Peelian Principles are Sir Robert Peel's philosophical principles of an ethical and consensual police force with no union with "Libertarian Anarchist" principles yet unspecified.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  5. #5
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    What precisely concisely are the principles of the "Libertarian Anarchist" that are premises to the judgment that you ask?
    I would list some of the general tenants as non-aggression, self-ownership, private property rights, laissez-faire economics, individual liberty (though this is probably too broad to be useful). I'm beginning to realize "Libertarian Anarchist" is probably much to ambiguous for a question like this.

    Let me clarify that my main reservation would be that no matter how I conducted myself as a police officer, my salary would still be payed via taxation, and I believe taxation is immoral. With the belief that taxation is immoral, is there any way to reconcile one's conscious with employment as a police officer?

    I have so far been unable to answer yes.

    Edit to add: the concept of "implicit consent" in that context I imagine would be heavily criticized in most "Libertarian" circles.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 06-18-2014 at 07:19 PM.
    Advocate freedom please

  6. #6
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I could never be a cop. I would be asked to do way to many things that are contrary to a voluntary free society and contrary to the current constitutional limits cops are supposed to have.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Its a moot question .. such people are too smart to be accepted as cops.

    All libertarians are too smart to be cops from the guidelines of the government...can't be too smart and be a cop.

    So while I see no issue from the libertarian applicant's viewpoint, they would never be accepted.

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    Because the US is not an Anarchist state, then yes, it would be a violation of the ideal of Anarchy.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I would list some of the general tenants as non-aggression, self-ownership, private property rights, laissez-faire economics, individual liberty (though this is probably too broad to be useful). I'm beginning to realize "Libertarian Anarchist" is probably much to ambiguous for a question like this.

    Let me clarify that my main reservation would be that no matter how I conducted myself as a police officer, my salary would still be payed via taxation, and I believe taxation is immoral. With the belief that taxation is immoral, is there any way to reconcile one's conscious with employment as a police officer?

    I have so far been unable to answer yes.

    Edit to add: the concept of "implicit consent" in that context I imagine would be heavily criticized in most "Libertarian" circles.
    So you answered your own question. You couldn't do it because taxes would pay for your salary.

    All I can say to help is look at this way... Usually the guys your helping are legit tax payers and happy to pay for your service especially after you helped them with x thing (find missing kid, find missing/stolen property, help at bad car accidents, help at fires, arrest guys for assaulting/robbing/harassing/disturbing said citizen, etc. Etc.) And the bad guys you arrest or charge for above crimes don't usually pay taxes anyways so don't have to worry about them.

    Don't watch you tube or stupid anti cop websites. There's literally hundreds of good things you can do for others in your community and can actually make a difference in peoples lives for the better.

    You just have to choose to be that way.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I would list some of the general tenants as non-aggression, self-ownership, private property rights, laissez-faire economics, individual liberty (though this is probably too broad to be useful). I'm beginning to realize "Libertarian Anarchist" is probably much to ambiguous for a question like this.

    Let me clarify that my main reservation would be that no matter how I conducted myself as a police officer, my salary would still be payed via taxation, and I believe taxation is immoral. With the belief that taxation is immoral, is there any way to reconcile one's conscious with employment as a police officer?

    I have so far been unable to answer yes.

    Edit to add: the concept of "implicit consent" in that context I imagine would be heavily criticized in most "Libertarian" circles.
    Is taxation immoral or is just taxing someone's labor immoral?

  11. #11
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    Because the US is not an Anarchist state, then yes, it would be a violation of the ideal of Anarchy.
    Madison had 3 definitions of state.

    The most commonly used one would make this an impossibility....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  12. #12
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I would list some of the general tenants as non-aggression, self-ownership, private property rights, laissez-faire economics, individual liberty (though this is probably too broad to be useful). I'm beginning to realize "Libertarian Anarchist" is probably much to ambiguous for a question like this.

    Let me clarify that my main reservation would be that no matter how I conducted myself as a police officer, my salary would still be payed via taxation, and I believe taxation is immoral. With the belief that taxation is immoral, is there any way to reconcile one's conscious with employment as a police officer?

    I have so far been unable to answer yes.

    Edit to add: the concept of "implicit consent" in that context I imagine would be heavily criticized in most "Libertarian" circles.
    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Is taxation immoral or is just taxing someone's labor immoral?
    Good question.

    Also I would add/ask of stealthy do you partake in any other services that are funded via the very same taxation? Any public services funded by taxes? City transportation, park services, etc.... I would wager you do, which is a perfectly normal and moral thing. But ask yourself how that conflicts with your other objections

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Good question.

    Also I would add/ask of stealthy do you partake in any other services that are funded via the very same taxation? Any public services funded by taxes? City transportation, park services, etc.... I would wager you do, which is a perfectly normal and moral thing. But ask yourself how that conflicts with your other objections

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    I would also add that taxing moveable and imoveable propery is immoral both at sale or recurring. Most assuradely, police are paid by some form of immoral taxation.

  14. #14
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Is there not other considerations that would dissuade a citizen from being a cop other than taxes?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  15. #15
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is there not other considerations that would dissuade a citizen from being a cop other than taxes?
    There are many. But stealthy specifically stated his main issue was that it was funded by taxes he finds immoral. So he would be drawing a pay check from a source he finds immoral.

    It wasn't just a general "hey guys why wouldn't I want to be a cop?". It started pretty specific about taxes and his political beliefs.

    He kind of answered his own question.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Is it a violation of principles, morals or ethics for a Libertarian Anarchist...
    Whoes principles, morals, ethics?

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/harrybin...-government-2/

    http://www.alternet.org/civil-libert...ans?page=0%2C0
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  17. #17
    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    I don't see how an anarchist could take an oath to uphold the constitution and other laws that he thinks is wrong...

    taxes immoral? makes me laugh out loud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    taxes immoral? makes me laugh out loud.
    I know!!!! It would be funny if it were't so sad that many believe legalized theft is moral.

  19. #19
    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    I know!!!! It would be funny if it were't so sad that many believe legalized theft is moral.
    No one forces you to be a citizen and pay taxes. If you don't want to help fund the government, then denounce your citizenship and leave. Pretty simple.

    I think is wrong for an Anarchist to even live as a citizen of the country, let alone have government employment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    No one forces you to be a citizen and pay taxes. [ ... ]
    I'm not certain just how to parse your statement quoted. No one forces one to be a citizen, I believe that true. No one forces one to pay taxes, I believe that false as, e. g., sales taxes are collected at the cash register and fuel taxes are included in the price of fuel. I believe that the IRS maintains an armed enforcement arm, effectively collecting taxes at gun point.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I'm not certain just how to parse your statement quoted. No one forces one to be a citizen, I believe that true. No one forces one to pay taxes, I believe that false as, e. g., sales taxes are collected at the cash register and fuel taxes are included in the price of fuel. I believe that the IRS maintains an armed enforcement arm, effectively collecting taxes at gun point.
    If you want to interact (buy) with companies doing business as part of the country, you have to follow the rules... You want to be in the Country and get all the benefits of being in the Country with no obligation to support the Country? If you want to buy things with no Tax to the local governments, then don't buy stuff like that. Go to some other place/state/country. If you cannot find anywhere in the world to go that meets your wants in life, then you need to make your own country. I doubt you can, you'd probably just be killed or locked up trying to take land from others, but hey... go for it.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    If you want to interact (buy) with companies doing business as part of the country, you have to follow the rules... You want to be in the Country and get all the benefits of being in the Country with no obligation to support the Country? If you want to buy things with no Tax to the local governments, then don't buy stuff like that. Go to some other place/state/country. If you cannot find anywhere in the world to go that meets your wants in life, then you need to make your own country. I doubt you can, you'd probably just be killed or locked up trying to take land from others, but hey... go for it.
    Nobody said you didnt have to follow the rules. The point is that the rules are immoral. Surely you agree.

  23. #23
    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Nobody said you didnt have to follow the rules. The point is that the rules are immoral. Surely you agree.
    I see nothing immoral with requiring citizens to help fund the government. I find plenty of laws and rules wrong which need to be changed. How taxes are handled in the US is very problematic, but I find nothing wrong with requiring taxes in principle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    I see nothing immoral with requiring citizens to help fund the government. I find plenty of laws and rules wrong which need to be changed. How taxes are handled in the US is very problematic, but I find nothing wrong with requiring taxes in principle.
    So you agree. Most forms of taxation are immoral. A percentage of my money is taken by force and then given to others without my consent nor to my benefit. You would agree that is immoral?

  25. #25
    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    So you agree. Most forms of taxation are immoral. A percentage of my money is taken by force and then given to others without my consent nor to my benefit. You would agree that is immoral?
    While the money might be mismanaged and/or used in immoral ways, taxation itself is not immoral. A corrupt government using our money wrongly doesn't make the taxation itself immoral any more than making the earning of the money immoral.

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