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Thread: How to legaly get a gun to open carry if you are under 21

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    How to legaly get a gun to open carry if you are under 21

    I am 19 and my girlfriend is getting me a pistol for my birthday. She is not 21 so her dad is getting the ppp and picking it up from a local ffl dealer. So its going to be givin to me as a gift. is this legal in NC? I plan on open carrying not in every store in town but I will carry it in my vehicle normally. Thanks for any feedback

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 910zach View Post
    I am 19 and my girlfriend is getting me a pistol for my birthday. She is not 21 so her dad is getting the ppp and picking it up from a local ffl dealer. So its going to be givin to me as a gift. is this legal in NC? I plan on open carrying not in every store in town but I will carry it in my vehicle normally. Thanks for any feedback
    Tread very carefully with this.

    New Supreme Court ruling:
    "The court makes it a federal crime for one lawful gun owner to buy a gun for another lawful gun owner," he said. "Whether or not that is a sensible result, the statutes Congress enacted do not support it."
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...asers/6180633/
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-19-2014 at 09:32 PM.
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    what would be a legal way of going about the issue?

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Tread very carefully with this.

    New Supreme Court ruling:
    "The court makes it a federal crime for one lawful gun owner to buy a gun for another lawful gun owner," he said. "Whether or not that is a sensible result, the statutes Congress enacted do not support it."
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...asers/6180633/
    BUT this was not a 'gift' but a straw purchase. The man gave the money to the purchaser specifically to pay for the gun.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    In light of the recent SCOTUS decision, I would recommend that the money be given to you prior to begining any paper work.

    Then you jump through the hoops to get the purchase paper work and buy from a private citizen.

    Safest way IMO.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    If it truly is a gift, from the purchaser, it is very clearly specifically legal, even mentioning it as so on the back side of the federal transfer form.

    But if she is buying it, and using him to do it, it is illegal, though wrongly so, but illegal nonetheless, and they take it seriously when they find out about it.

    Many gun shops will even deny a purchase if they hear that it is a "gift" because they don't want to take a chance. It is best to keep quiet about it if you are intending it for someone else, even if a legal gift.

    The other option, barring any state laws to the contrary, is a private party purchase on the used market, which federal law does not regulate.

    She can ask her dad to buy you a present, and tell him what to get you, but the law says she can't be the purchaser, so her dad is the giver, not her; so she'll have to "owe him a gift" (presumably of equal value) later, if you catch my meaning.
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-19-2014 at 09:57 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Tread very carefully with this.

    New Supreme Court ruling:
    "The court makes it a federal crime for one lawful gun owner to buy a gun for another lawful gun owner," he said. "Whether or not that is a sensible result, the statutes Congress enacted do not support it."
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...asers/6180633/
    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    BUT this was not a 'gift' but a straw purchase. The man gave the money to the purchaser specifically to pay for the gun.
    Read the entire linked article, SCOTUS says differently.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    BUT this was not a 'gift' but a straw purchase. The man gave the money to the purchaser specifically to pay for the gun.
    But from the OP:
    Quote Originally Posted by 910zach View Post
    I am 19 and my girlfriend is getting me a pistol for my birthday. She is not 21 so her dad is getting the ppp and picking it up from a local ffl dealer.
    The fact that it is being given as a gift to the OP isn't the problem, it is that daddy dearest is apparently buying it on behalf of the under-21 daughter/girlfriend. The way the OP is written makes it appear that daughter/girlfriend is having dad buy it for her since she can't, and could easily be construed that she will be giving dad the money... On the surface, could easily be considered a straw purchase especially since the daughter/girlfriend can't legally do so herself.

    Now, if dad was to buy the gun with intent to gift it to the OP himself, that would not be a straw purchase.
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    It was the girlfriends idea to get it for me but the dad is paying for it, so as a gift would it be legal. I cant get it because I can not apply for a ppp because I am not 21 even thou I have heard of people getting them under 21 ... but it is legal to open carry a firearm in North Carolina at 18. I am just trying to go thru the process legal.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 910zach View Post
    I am just trying to go thru the process legal.
    As I understand it, the only legal way (from a Federal perspective, I can't speak to the State issues as I'm unfamiliar with NC law) would be for the father to buy the gun as a gift for you, eliminating the daughter/girlfriend entirely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustaShooter View Post
    As I understand it, the only legal way (from a Federal perspective, I can't speak to the State issues as I'm unfamiliar with NC law) would be for the father to buy the gun as a gift for you, eliminating the daughter/girlfriend entirely.
    Ok thanks a lot for the feedback guys!

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    sorry justashooter, bad advice from the buckeye state, especially w/o a federal cite...
    (consider it like the underage kid standing in front of the liquor store asking some bloke off the street to buy him a pint)

    ok, from a NC perspective, if the scenario goes down as OP described, he would be the third owner of the firearm, in a matter of days ~ i must agree with Grapeshot, the entire group in this scheme should tread very carefully as this borders on a strawman purchase.

    rationale:

    1. the purchaser is not your caregiver per se and the 'gift' is not immediately going to you but to a secondary individual who is < 21.
    2. this secondary individual who is actually receiving the 'gift' is not a relative or caregiver or anything else to you but only transferring ownership of the firearm to you, another < 21 individual, so for you to receive the firearm YOU you must have a PPP IAW NC Statutes 14-402: It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) snip...you have a PPP or (ii) snip....you have a CHP (since your < 21 not happening).
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...rticle_52A.pdf

    even if gf's caregiver purchases the firearm and hands it directly to you, i believe provisions of 14-402 would apply and you would need to proffer up a PPP at the very least so i would be weary as this individual has no relationship to you what so ever, and could be 'joe smuck' off the street.

    if i were GF's caregiver, there would be no way in God's Green Earth i would purchase a firearm for my daughter so she could to give to some boy, friend or not.

    OP go apply for the PPP from the sheriff's department age 18-21 is allowed to be issued PPPs...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-19-2014 at 10:50 PM.
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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    sorry justashooter, bad advice from the buckeye state, especially w/o a federal cite...
    (consider it like the underage kid standing in front of the liquor store asking some bloke off the street to buy him a pint)
    Certainly, I bow to your knowledge of NC state law, which is why I qualified my reply as I did. But I stand by the Federal aspect. As to a cite, here, have two:

    From the back of the 4473:
    1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
    firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
    redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
    actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.

    ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
    Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
    the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
    licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
    buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
    the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.
    Emphasis mine.

    Also, from FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS REFERENCE GUIDE page 165:

    Where a person purchases a firearm
    with the intent of making a gift of the
    firearm to another person, the person
    making the purchase is indeed the true
    purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
    in these instances.
    The only way this applies to the OP is if the person purchasing the gun (dear ol' dad) is the one giving the gun as a gift to the OP.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If you are going through this to get around the law, because you are ineligible to buy a handgun from a ffl, I think you are on thin ice. Everybody involved is on thin ice.

    Look for a private seller(non FFL) and buy a used gun. NOT one that has been purchased from a FFL for you, when you are not legal to buy one yourself. Or do what I have told others, buy a antique firearm without any hassles.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-20-2014 at 08:28 PM.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    i do wish everyone would quit citing the back of a form...it's just bad form (pun intended) and doesn't carry the weight of the law since it is a viable a cite as putting the information on a napkin, with the same caveats of don't lie on the napkin...

    OP why haven't you even attempted to spend the $5 for a PPP, what is it you're not telling forum members??

    you hoooooo OP?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i do wish everyone would quit citing the back of a form...it's just bad form (pun intended) and doesn't carry the weight of the law since it is a viable a cite as putting the information on a napkin, with the same caveats of don't lie on the napkin...

    OP why haven't you even attempted to spend the $5 for a PPP, what is it you're not telling forum members??

    you hoooooo OP?

    ipse




    All I was asking was what was the correct way to do this and what was legal and illegal also. Im not keeping anything from anyone and I have tried to get a ppp my self but can not do so they say I have to be 21

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 910zach View Post
    All I was asking was what was the correct way to do this and what was legal and illegal also. Im not keeping anything from anyone and I have tried to get a ppp my self but can not do so they say I have to be 21
    Appeal, or simply order a 58 Remy 5.5 inch barrel with a spare cylinder. As a teenager I carried a Colt 49 pocket pistol for years, and was able to take small game with it easily. BP revolvers are accurate, and they can play a effective role in self defense.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 910zach View Post
    All I was asking was what was the correct way to do this and what was legal and illegal also. Im not keeping anything from anyone and I have tried to get a ppp my self but can not do so they say I have to be 21
    "they say?" who is THEY? the denial must be in writing from the sheriff's department citing 14-404(b) not some oral 'go away kid, you're bothering me' spoken in the deputy's best WCFields impersonation: quote

    If the sheriff is not fully satisfied, the sheriff may, for good cause shown, decline to issue the permit and shall provide to the applicant within seven days of the refusal a written statement of the reason(s) for the refusal. The statement shall cite the specific facts upon which the sheriff concluded that the applicant was not qualified for the issuance of a permit and list, by statute number, the applicable law upon which the denial is based. An appeal from the refusal shall lie by way of petition to the chief judge of the district court for the district in which the application was filed. The determination by the court, on appeal, shall be upon the facts, the law, and the reasonableness of the sheriff's refusal, and shall be final. unquote.

    14-404c (1) - (8) lists disqualification items and truth be told, there is no mention of being < 21 being a disqualifier.

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...rticle_52A.pdf

    which county did you attempt this PPP sojourn?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-21-2014 at 02:12 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    remember some of the olde time good olde boy network sheriffs do not feel their citizens need to be armed and therefore intentionally 'ignore' state statute for their own benefit knowing citizens lack the financial resources to judicially challenge them or the courts do not feel the fight with the sheriff who has been in power for 20-30 years is worth the political loss...

    sad state of affairs to be honest...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    First, you need to push the PPP issue with your local sheriff. Appeal if you need to through the process. Nothing can happen in NC legally until you get that.

    Second, your gf needs to ALSO go get a PPP.

    Third, your gf's father needs to go get a PPP unless he has a CCP already.

    Fourth, your gf's father goes and makes the purchase, filling out the form truthfully - that he is the buyer of the firearm.

    Fifth, the gf's father transfers ownership as a gift to his daughter. *She must, by law in NC, have a PPP for her to receive it legally*

    Sixth, the gf then transfers ownership to you as a gift for your birthday - which is why you need the PPP as well.

    Ideally, both she and her dad will put a couple of rounds through it each just so it can be claimed as "used" by each previous owner. Not a requirement under the law though.

    Regarding the PPP issue, check into pro 2a attorneys who might be willing to take the case pro bono if needed.

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