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Thread: Armed Citizens: obligations? training? appropriate actions?

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    Armed Citizens: obligations? training? appropriate actions?

    What is the armed citizens course of action when they are at the scene or on scene while an armed and/or violent criminal is perpetrating some evil?

    What are the obligations and responsibilities of an armed citizen?

    I would think, 'do not harm innocents, consider what is behind the target, take cover, avoid over penetration if you must shoot..'
    But this is all while safe and calm, I dunno what I might feel or think in the heat of a moment.
    As an OC'er I would believe that I would have only a small window before I was noticed as being armed.

    What would you do if say, two people; one brandishing a gun, enter the establishment you are in and announce a robbery and order everyone on the floor? (I understand it's hard to do 'what ifs' and possibly silly of me to ask.)

    How do you consider whether there are more criminal members that have not revealed themselves?

    Due to the way most search engines work, I have found it difficult to get information on what an armed citizen should do if they find themselves in an currently-unfolding, armed/violent criminal event, i.e. a hostage situation, multiple shooting or armed robbery.

    It seems hard to find information on some of these kinds of actual events and how armed citizens responded.

    How do people train for this?

    I think weapon proficiency is paramount. Get good with whatever you shoot.
    But paper and metal targets probably only train marksmanship.

    Practice taking cover?

    I have heard force on force training is ideal, i.e. airsoft/paintball/simunitions.

    What are the go to resources on this; on situational awareness and action?

    What do we need to be thinking about?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanNabis View Post
    What is the armed citizens course of action when they are at the scene or on scene while an armed and/or violent criminal is perpetrating some evil?

    What are the obligations and responsibilities of an armed citizen?

    I would think, 'do not harm innocents, consider what is behind the target, take cover, avoid over penetration if you must shoot..'
    But this is all while safe and calm, I dunno what I might feel or think in the heat of a moment.
    As an OC'er I would believe that I would have only a small window before I was noticed as being armed.

    What would you do if say, two people; one brandishing a gun, enter the establishment you are in and announce a robbery and order everyone on the floor? (I understand it's hard to do 'what ifs' and possibly silly of me to ask.)

    How do you consider whether there are more criminal members that have not revealed themselves?

    Due to the way most search engines work, I have found it difficult to get information on what an armed citizen should do if they find themselves in an currently-unfolding, armed/violent criminal event, i.e. a hostage situation, multiple shooting or armed robbery.

    It seems hard to find information on some of these kinds of actual events and how armed citizens responded.

    How do people train for this?

    I think weapon proficiency is paramount. Get good with whatever you shoot.
    But paper and metal targets probably only train marksmanship.

    Practice taking cover?

    I have heard force on force training is ideal, i.e. airsoft/paintball/simunitions.

    What are the go to resources on this; on situational awareness and action?

    What do we need to be thinking about?
    First, know the laws in your state. Do you have duty to retreat or stand your ground or some combination Thereof.

    Second, train as much as possible. And no paper target at 7yds one hand in pocket cigarette in mouth doesn't count. IDPA, USPSA etc. Etc. Train/compete under a clock. Why? Because it adds stress. It goes "beep" and game on. You find out quick you start to miss shots. Take a class... Or 12. Not a 4hr gun safety class. A multi day defensive shooting class. Can't afford time, ammo, class? I understand because its a lot of money. Then use the internet. There are many drills online. I would even go so far to say that even if takes a long time to save and you only go once, find that class and attend. You will walk away with drills and guidance that you can use on your own.

    Finally, take a deep look inside and figure out why you carry. Do you carry and how you normally react to bad situations. Are you the kind of person that goes towards the car accident or the yelling to try and help? Or do you walk away? If a person is yelling help do you just call 911? Or do you try to render aid.

    Note: option A walking away from bad stuff and not rendering aid does NOT make you a bad person. Just makes you human. And walking TOWARDS yelling doesn't make you a "hero". Makes you a decent human being.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    These vids are a great training tool using real life situations https://youtube.com/watch?v=A39hRXP1...YnjybHclrPBxdl
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 06-20-2014 at 03:12 AM.
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    Training is nice but consider this aspect: well trained US soldiers in Korea, when first asked to shoot at the enemy..most would not and deliberately missed with their very accurate firearm that they were well trained on.

    Most carriers are not trained infantrymen who have battle experience.

    Shooting at paper targets is nice and all .. shooting at a person is different.

    Reminds me of my old neighbor who served in WW II on the German/Russian lines ... he said that his favorite instrument of killing was not his rifle but his shovel. One cannot underestimate to effectiveness of bladed weapons. Anyone OCing should be carrying a bladed weapon as well...in many cases its the better option...but to each his own.

    What should people do at a robbery? Its too dependent on the situation. What if its 7 yr old kids who are the robbers? You willing to kill a couple of 7 yr old kids stealing food? And it depends on the person's viewpoint of their own worth; a person who thinks that their life is the most precious thing on earth would likely choose a different action response to a 95 yr old girl or guy who has a terminal illness who knows that they have only days to live. So whats the correct response: live and learn (of course) - maybe its candid camera !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    First, know the laws in your state. Do you have duty to retreat or stand your ground or some combination Thereof.
    <snip>
    I would say learn the laws in your state and then petition the guberment to change them so that you can protect yourself as you see fit, not how any fat politician with bodyguards thinks you should be able to.

    I would never find anyone guilty of any crime for not retreating or taking action to defend themselves...

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    Classic Bill MacNeil ... attitudes about getting soft ^^


    And why should I be subject to laws made before I was even born?? Why should my grand kids?
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 06-20-2014 at 03:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanNabis View Post
    [ ... ] What do we need to be thinking about?
    Think about your gun as a self-defense weapon, and that when the line is crossed to defense of another, the legal liabilities multiply.

    Your "I would think, 'do not harm innocents, consider what is behind the target, take cover, avoid over penetration if you must shoot.." sounds like an incompetent paraphrase of the precepts of gun safety conflated with the elements of common-law self-defense.

    Elements of self-defense
    • Be innocent of instigation.
    • Be in reasonable fear of bodily harm.
    • Use sufficient force only to protect from evil.
    • Attempt to withdraw.


    Gun safety precepts
    • All guns are loaded until they aren't.
    • Cover with the muzzle that only which would be destroyed.
    • Keep your finger off the trigger.
    • Know your target and what is beyond.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    First, know the laws in your state. Do you have duty to retreat or stand your ground or some combination Thereof.

    Second, train as much as possible. And no paper target at 7yds one hand in pocket cigarette in mouth doesn't count. IDPA, USPSA etc. Etc. Train/compete under a clock. Why? Because it adds stress. It goes "beep" and game on. You find out quick you start to miss shots. Take a class... Or 12. Not a 4hr gun safety class. A multi day defensive shooting class. Can't afford time, ammo, class? I understand because its a lot of money. Then use the internet. There are many drills online. I would even go so far to say that even if takes a long time to save and you only go once, find that class and attend. You will walk away with drills and guidance that you can use on your own.

    Finally, take a deep look inside and figure out why you carry. Do you carry and how you normally react to bad situations. Are you the kind of person that goes towards the car accident or the yelling to try and help? Or do you walk away? If a person is yelling help do you just call 911? Or do you try to render aid.

    Note: option A walking away from bad stuff and not rendering aid does NOT make you a bad person. Just makes you human. And walking TOWARDS yelling doesn't make you a "hero". Makes you a decent human being.

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    What are the obligations and responsibilities of an armed citizen?
    Let me approach that backwards.

    The responsibilities of the armed citizen are to obey the laws. All of them, not just the ones relating directly to firearms. There is no need to quibble or try to split hairs or pass camels through eyes of needles Just obey the laws.

    But the obligations of the armed citizen? That (and I'm guessing at the OP's meaning of that word) is pretty much up to the armed citizen so long as they abide by the laws as they go about fulfilling what the believe to be their obligations. It's probably (I'm guessing again) the debate about being a sheepdog or not. Some folks see their herd as the whole wide world while others have a very limited flock. It depends on how big you define your flock as to what your "obligations" are should you observe certain actions taking place. For some if they see a robbery in progress or a physical assault (lumping everything from rape/kidnapping/arson to a slap on the face under that one heading) they feel (and please note that word) obligated to intervene. For others if whatever is happening is not happening to a member of a small and closely defined group of people the most they feel is an obligation to be the best witness possible under the circumstances without increasing the danger to themself and their flock.

    The discussion comes down to whether or not I will accept the way in which you define your flock and therefore your obligations, and whether or not you will do the same for me.

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    ....

    And why should I be subject to laws made before I was even born?? Why should my grand kids?
    The rule here on oCDO is that we respect the laws and work to change the ones we believe to be bad or no longer useful.

    If you would like to engage is a discussion of the "social contract" I would be only to glad to begin to explain to you why both you and your grandchildren should subject themselves to laws that were written before any of you were born. But then I would miss out on the opportunity to wade through the morass of The Law of the Jungle.

    There are a significant number of people who feel as you do, or at least as your question suggests. They are generally lumped together under the label of sociopath, with a large subset being further refined as criminals. I, for one, have no difficulty in putting you in either group if that is what you want.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    +1
    Approve of the requirement to need to retreat?

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    Campaign Veteran Running Wolf's Avatar
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    In regards to the OP: I would probably not intervene if the only thing at stake is money, as in the robbery scenario you mentioned. If I'm going to intervene at all it's probably only going to be if significant bodily harm or death is threatened against someone in my vicinity. I say "probably" because I've not been in any such situation and so I don't know for a fact how I would react. I have risked my well-being in the aid of others in the past, it's pretty likely I'd do it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Note: option A walking away from bad stuff and not rendering aid does NOT make you a bad person. Just makes you human. And walking TOWARDS yelling doesn't make you a "hero". Makes you a decent human being.
    I'd like to point out it's entirely possible to be a decent person and walk away from, or avoid, trouble. And it's entirely possible to walk towards trouble even if you are not a decent person. In fact, there are probably more bad reasons to head towards trouble than there are good ones . . .
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    So many possibilities with these type of situations that its hard to say x,y,or z in dealing with what ifs. My basic thinking is that if women and especially children are involved, then I will do what I can to end the threat and do my best to protect them. When it comes to men fighting, battling, or just trying to kill each other then I would mind my own business and not get involved. If I ended up in a fist or gun fight with another guy that has attacked me, I would hope others would stay out of it for it is my affair and that's what I would do for someone else. I am not saying that I want any trouble and I do all I can to stay out of conflicts, but my conflicts are mine and others should mind their own business.

    No offense is intended and I am not promoting violence or violations of city, county, state, or U.S. laws. All thoughts written in this posting are hypothetical and are for entertainment purposes only.

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    OP, there are a gaggle of forum folk out here who believe their role, while OC'g, to the community is to act as a protector of the community citizens if anyone who does evil in front of them, even if laws do not grant them that authority.

    there are a group of citizens out here who believe their OC'd firearm is carried for their own and loved one's self protection to the extent legally possible.

    individuals in each of these gaggles and groups believe their perspective is the only important methodology and IMHO is apparently as a moral decision.

    individuals in both sectors train to a tactical advantage, some to the extreme, others to adequately meet their needs, so both can meet their individual perspectives of how they are OC'g.

    therefore, both of these entities have their own belief of what their obligations and responsibilities are to meet their specific OC hierarchy of needs.

    so perhaps you must get individuals to quantify their rational for carrying and then extrapolate what their exact belief of obligations and responsibilities are to fulfill their hierarchy.

    that said, i carry for the SD of myself and loved ones only! i will not seek out situations, as such, carry as prescribed by law. if thrown into a situation, it will be played out w/or w/o my participation.

    i do not seek out tactical training, advanced or extreme, but rely on my markmanship skills which are honed to my satisfaction.

    i also do not engage nor waste time in what if BS hyperbole since there are an indefinite set of answers based all the way up to the religious arguments.

    BTW...i can sleep at night with my hierarchy i have worked out. could i do better...don't know until i meet someone to discuss my past life upon my passing.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-20-2014 at 08:26 PM.
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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanNabis View Post
    SNIP...
    What are the obligations and responsibilities of an armed citizen?

    SNIP...

    How do people train for this?

    I think weapon proficiency is paramount. Get good with whatever you shoot.
    But paper and metal targets probably only train marksmanship.

    Practice taking cover?

    I have heard force on force training is ideal, i.e. airsoft/paintball/simunitions.

    What are the go to resources on this; on situational awareness and action?

    What do we need to be thinking about?
    I'd imagine anyone who owns ANYTHING should at least make an honest attempt to become familiarized with the function and handling of said "thing" (be it a firearm, grill, power drill, car, toaster, etc.) because ignorance is bliss until ignorance causes an accident. Knowledge is good, knowledge is power, but I'd like to make it clear I'd never say a requirement should exist for someone to exercise a basic human Right.
    The same applies to firearms, so I will not repeat the need to follow the four rules of gun safety, the benefits of practicing, or the need to be familiar with how the firearm handles with your carry ammunition. I try to maintain a level of proficiency in line with the limited resources at my disposal; far from ideal, but an earnest attempt on my part.
    Along similar lines, I will say that one of the reasons (not the most prominent) I refuse to get a CCW is because I want to dispel the notion that someone must get a permit in order to exercise a basic Right.

    As for any obligations to the people around me: all other adults likely had as much, if not more, of an opportunity to arm themselves as I did; I did without a few things for some time in order to buy my 1911 almost exactly one year ago, just as they could likely do if they wanted to. I have/feel no obligation to intervene in a violent situation unless it is to protect my loved ones (family and good friends) and possibly children (the only innocent humans, IMO). All other situations would be a case-by-case basis, and would only be to defend a life, not property. Of course, I would try to be a good witness.

    If someone is made a little safer through proximity to my VISIBLE sidearm, that is merely a bonus to them but not at all my intended purpose. I carry my sidearm for self defense; desensitizing and education of the masses are secondary and tertiary reasons (respectively). Anything else is unintended.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 06-21-2014 at 12:35 AM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    We have no obligation in my state to give aid or offer services to help save someone. You cannot be compelled to put your life in jeopardy in order to save another. So that means it's pretty much up to the individual. As others have mentioned, learn the laws of you state as they relate to the use of deadly force and also those which affect subsequent liabilities, if any.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Good thread, but I wonder about this.

    If you go to all these training camps and FoF, practice hard, carry a 10mm, lift and pump are you more or less likely to feel you need to demonstrate your training was not wasted by wading in when you might have an escape option?

    I think it's a good idea to divorce all thoughts of 'courage' and 'protecting the innocent' from the concept of "self" defense. Going home safely, staying out of the legal system, not inserting yourself and find out the BG was really a cop fighting with a detainee.

    There might be a tipping point where someone who is (at least in their mind) highly skilled, experienced, capable would be tempted to fight when evading was the best option.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    snip

    There might be a tipping point where someone who is (at least in their mind) highly skilled, experienced, capable would be tempted to fight when evading was the best option.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-fKWSL9Nts

    thanks dirty harry for the great comment...

    ipse
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Good thread, but I wonder about this.

    If you go to all these training camps and FoF, practice hard, carry a 10mm, lift and pump are you more or less likely to feel you need to demonstrate your training was not wasted by wading in when you might have an escape option?

    I think it's a good idea to divorce all thoughts of 'courage' and 'protecting the innocent' from the concept of "self" defense. Going home safely, staying out of the legal system, not inserting yourself and find out the BG was really a cop fighting with a detainee.

    There might be a tipping point where someone who is (at least in their mind) highly skilled, experienced, capable would be tempted to fight when evading was the best option.
    Well put and salient points, all.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  19. #19
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    ^^ yeah thanks but I'm not clicking a link, but would respond to a comment.

    It smacks of 'DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?' I have TEN IDPA wins, 5 black belts and beat a UFC champion in chess', and the BG's girlfriend shoots him in the back.

    I'm just saying that too much work on being 'up to par' could cause an unexpectedly bad outcome.

    IMO, the best you can do is be calm, not be there, work with a partner, get time, distance and cover, and deploy as a last resort NOT go train up as though you're an Urban Commando and end up looking for trouble.

    The truth is that the people who need firearms are really the elderly, the disabled, the weak, not some 250lb 6'7 commando in cammo with a slung shotgun. Since you can't train the elderly to run and jump through hoops, let's face it, we can help them to have a firearm and know basics and do some routine training. Touting this super-training philosophy as a solution to self-defense is ridiculous. Half the time it's luck if you survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    ^^ yeah thanks but I'm not clicking a link, but would respond to a comment.

    It smacks of 'DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?' I have TEN IDPA wins, 5 black belts and beat a UFC champion in chess', and the BG's girlfriend shoots him in the back.

    I'm just saying that too much work on being 'up to par' could cause an unexpectedly bad outcome.

    IMO, the best you can do is be calm, not be there, work with a partner, get time, distance and cover, and deploy as a last resort NOT go train up as though you're an Urban Commando and end up looking for trouble.

    The truth is that the people who need firearms are really the elderly, the disabled, the weak, not some 250lb 6'7 commando in cammo with a slung shotgun. Since you can't train the elderly to run and jump through hoops, let's face it, we can help them to have a firearm and know basics and do some routine training. Touting this super-training philosophy as a solution to self-defense is ridiculous. Half the time it's luck if you survive.
    +1 Well said. Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and guns and the Truth. God Bless US Bitter Clingers MOLON LABE
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Good thread, but I wonder about this.

    If you go to all these training camps and FoF, practice hard, carry a 10mm, lift and pump are you more or less likely to feel you need to demonstrate your training was not wasted by wading in when you might have an escape option?

    I think it's a good idea to divorce all thoughts of 'courage' and 'protecting the innocent' from the concept of "self" defense. Going home safely, staying out of the legal system, not inserting yourself and find out the BG was really a cop fighting with a detainee.

    There might be a tipping point where someone who is (at least in their mind) highly skilled, experienced, capable would be tempted to fight when evading was the best option.
    A single data point does not indicate a trend, but ...

    I've been trrained. I've practiced. I've sharpened my skills in several of the games. And then life decided to look me square in the eyes.

    No need was felt to assert my skills and abilities. As a matter of fact the very second thing I noticed was a way to back out of the situation without creating more danger/risk for myself. And I did.

    I have typed and edited and revised an attempt to explain the above, but have decided to give up the attempt. What I have experienced will have no influence on anybody else and I do not want to bore you with some story or another. Suffice it to say that I made my decisions. It may be different next time. In other words, I can tell you what I have done but have no idea what I will do.

    stay safe.
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  22. #22
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    Individual choice.

    I find it interesting the use of words for those who's personality leans toward protecting others too.

    They don't apply it to saving people from drowning.

    They don't apply it to helping someone in dire need of medical attention.

    They don't apply it in a misuse of "self defense" of the government.

    They don't apply it to those with shiny badges when they decide to help someone other than extort them.


    Why would it apply to individual citizens.

    Make up your own mind do what you is think is right and sometimes doing what is "lawful" isn't always what is right. Weigh these things carefully and ponder upon them now before you rushing headlong into something.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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