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Thread: Janesville Moves to ban in a city owned park

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    Janesville Moves to ban in a city owned park

    First I'd like to say thanks a lot to the asshat from out of town that couldn't seem to keep control of his own weapon.
    Second, this doesn't seem to pass the sniff test to me, seems like an awful liberal interpretation of the wording of the law.
    With so many cops in the association it makes me wonder how many of them are elitists that feel they are above all of us and carry.

    Plucked from the Janesville Gazette


    Group to ban weapons at youth ball fields

    6 9 0 Comments Comments Print Print
    Neil Johnson
    June 18, 2014

    Aaron Ellis
    JANESVILLE--The Janesville Youth Baseball and Softball Association plans to post signs banning guns at ball fields that the group leases from the city, an association official said.

    The move comes after a Whitewater man unknowingly dropped his loaded, concealed-carried handgun in a softball outfield at the city's Youth Sports Complex on June 8.

    A player found the gun later that day and turned it over to an umpire.

    Aaron Ellis, who is a Janesville police officer and president of the Janesville Youth Baseball and Softball Association, said a legal opinion from the city indicates the association can post ball fields it leases as weapon-free zones.

    “It looks like we'll be able to post 'No concealed, no open carry' signs. That was good news for us, I think,” Ellis said this week.

    The group plans to post the fields as soon as it gets legal wording written and signs made, Ellis said.

    Ellis said the weapon-free signs won't necessarily prevent people from bringing guns to ballgames, but they could limit the group's liability and make people who carry guns think twice.

    “You're not going to be able to prevent someone from carrying a weapon. You can't pat down hundreds of people at softball or baseball games,” Ellis said. “But hopefully, this will make people think, 'Do I really need to bring my gun when my granddaughter is going to a softball game?'”

    In a legal opinion City Attorney Wald Klimczyk emailed last week to city and group officials, Klimczyk said the city has no authority to ban weapons from city-owned and “occupied” parks or open spaces.

    According to the State Bar of Wisconsin and state law, municipalities cannot ban firearms on government lands, which includes parks.

    Yet, Klimczyk said, a provision in state law allows private groups that lease public spaces to ban guns and post signs that designate leased spaces as weapon-free zones.

    According to the email, Klimczyk's read on the law is this: Because the Janesville Youth Baseball and Softball Association is a private group that leases ball fields from the city, the association—not the city—“occupies” the space.

    Therefore, he said, the association as a private group can ban weapons under a provision of law that covers trespassing while carrying firearms.

    Nik Clark, who is president of the nonprofit gun rights advocacy group Wisconsin Carry, said he believes that read on the law is “stretching things.”

    He's not sure if it's lawful to ban guns at privately leased public parks.

    Clark said he believes the law's firearms trespassing provision doesn't clearly spell out whether leaseholders who rent open public spaces for limited activities such as baseball and softball are “occupants,” or whether a municipality and its taxpayers continue to occupy the spaces.

    Clark said the Janesville group could declare its youth baseball and softball games a “special event,” which could allow the group to ban guns there. But under state law, he said, that could require the association to place "secured, controlled gates" at the ball fields.

    Some Wisconsin cities have tried to lease parks to nonprofits for a dollar a year as a way to prohibit guns, but it doesn't always work, Clark said.

    The city of Appleton had looked to ban weapons at a private farmers market. He said Appleton officials told him the ban failed because the market was held in an open public space with no controlled gates.

    If people continue to bring weapons to the Youth Sports Complex, Ellis said, the association could enforce its ban by calling police. But he said many involved in the association are city police officers or Rock County sheriff's deputies. Those officers could opt to handle violations “discreetly,” Ellis said.

    “If they or somebody else saw somebody with a weapon, they could say something like 'Look, why don't you go lock that up in the car?'” he said.

    Ellis said he doesn't believe the rules will cause confrontations with people who'd argue their right to carry firearms.

    He acknowledged that any time a municipality or private group tries to limit where people can take weapons, it can raise the hackles of gun rights groups.

    “I think that's a legitimate fear. We didn't know what the blowback would be. Some groups come in and try to bait you into doing something illegal with open carry or concealed carry,” Ellis said.

    Ellis said the ban is not about the association being anti-gun.

    “It's not because we have a strong feeling on guns. On any given night, we have hundreds of kids at the fields. The potential for an accident is too great to risk,” Ellis said. “Common sense is that this is the best action for us to take."

    - See more at: http://www.gazettextra.com/20140618/....90VT025O.dpuf

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    I would be more worried with all those clubs that they have lying about around the field.

    More anti garbage ... post whatever signs they want it would have no legal effect.

    Oddly enough, a player found the gun and turned it over to an ump .. nobody went crazy just upon the sight of a gun.

    Seems like the facts don't support the concern.

    And don't rifles have a range that is greater than the distance covered by a park?

    Perhaps they should build an enclosed field. Or an underground one. Or build one in space.

    Or not have baseball at all.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    lol, best of luck posting a field.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Yetiman's Avatar
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    So what he is saying is, it won't be legally enforceable or effective, but it will make us all feel better.

    They give this guy a badge and to power to arrest people?

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Ellis said the weapon-free signs won't necessarily prevent people from bringing guns to ballgames, but they could limit the group's liability and make people who carry guns think twice.
    No, it won't limit your liability. You just open yourself to getting sued should something happen. If you don't post, you have immunity from being sued. Did he bother to read the law or pay any attention to the city attorney?

    In a legal opinion City Attorney Wald Klimczyk emailed last week to city and group officials, Klimczyk said the city has no authority to ban weapons from city-owned and “occupied” parks or open spaces.
    Why wouldn't you take the advice of the city attorney, you know, someone that actually knows the law?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    When a firearms owner is as irresponsible and careless as this guy was there should be repercussions.
    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...roger-gransee/
    Last edited by Franky; 06-20-2014 at 10:43 AM.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    No, it won't limit your liability. You just open yourself to getting sued should something happen. If you don't post, you have immunity from being sued. Did he bother to read the law or pay any attention to the city attorney?



    Why wouldn't you take the advice of the city attorney, you know, someone that actually knows the law?
    The next paragraph then says that the same lawyers take is that the youth baseball league occupies that space and that they CAN legally post it.

    So they are taking that attorneys advice.


    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Ellis said the ban is not about the association being anti-gun.

    “It's not because we have a strong feeling on guns. On any given night, we have hundreds of kids at the fields. The potential for an accident is too great to risk,” Ellis said. “Common sense is that this is the best action for us to take."
    Banning guns is anti-gun.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran Running Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    When a firearms owner is as irresponsible and careless as this guy was there should be repercussions.
    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...roger-gransee/
    So everyone should be punished every time an idiot does something idiotic. Good idea . . .
    When rights are outlawed only outlaws will have rights.

    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. - Hanlon's Razor

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    The Janesville Youth Baseball and Softball Association plans to post signs banning guns at ball fields that the group leases from the city, an association official said.
    Why would they waste the money, and are they really allowed to post signs in public parks?

    Ellis said the weapon-free signs won't necessarily prevent people from bringing guns to ballgames, but they could limit the group's liability and make people who carry guns think twice.
    So he admits it won't stop the behaviour he doesn't like...
    And are those off-duty officers going to leave their self-defense tools in their cars?

    officers could opt to handle violations “discreetly,” Ellis said.
    What violations? The law says it's legal to be armed in a public park, and the law says they can't prohibit anyone from carrying legally.

    "Some groups come in and try to bait you into doing something illegal with open carry or concealed carry,” Ellis said.
    So he knows what he's doing is illegal. No baiting about it, he's willing to do it.

    a legal opinion from the city indicates the association can post ball fields it leases as weapon-free zones.
    a provision in state law allows private groups that lease public spaces to ban guns and post signs that designate leased spaces as weapon-free zones ... the association as a private group can ban weapons under a provision of law that covers trespassing while carrying firearms.
    Well, maybe, maybe not.
    I'm betting on not.

    Quote Originally Posted by 943.13 Trespass to land
    (1m) Whoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeiture:
    (b) Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises.
    This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out-of-state licensee if the owner's or occupant's intent is to prevent the licensee or out-of-state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner's or occupant's land.
    http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/943/II/13

    Then there's the later statute, 943.13(1m)(c)(2) which seems as though it might conflict, depending on whether or not the park is occupied by the city or the group which leases it part of the year for games (but I'm guessing they don't do any of the upkeep, so I'd say they don't actually occupy it).

    While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in any part of a nonresidential building, grounds of a nonresidential building, or land that the actor does not own or occupy after the owner ... or the occupant of that part of the building, grounds, or land has notified the actor not to enter or remain ... while carrying a firearm or with that type of firearm.
    This subdivision does not apply to a part of a building, grounds, or land occupied by the state or by a local governmental unit ...
    Are there buildings on the baseball fields?
    And does the baseball group actually occupy the grounds, or only use it once in a while for part of the year?

    Finally got the article to open, not behind a paywall.
    http://www.gazettextra.com/20140618/...th_ball_fields

    Or here's another way to it:
    http://www.walworthcountytoday.com/a...0619669&Show=0

    But either way, you can't comment unless you're a subscriber. >

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Perhaps the libtards have forgotten Wisconsin has preeption. Not only is there the Second Amendment which nullifies any and all gun control laws in the first place, State statute is clear as well. I wish I could drive. I would set up a rally to be held at the park and I still think someone else should do it. Then tackle the cities that have illegally banned firearms in public buildings, also in violation of state statute.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Perhaps the libtards have forgotten Wisconsin has preeption[sic]...State statute is clear as well.
    There is no enforcement § 66.0409. Yes, the "libtards" forgot, but so did the reptards.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    There is no enforcement § 66.0409. Yes, the "libtards" forgot, but so did the reptards.
    pfffttt they are all as bad as each other many times. We can trust politicians about as well as we can trust the police and Obarfa himself. Question is are there enough good people here to make enough of a difference. I've not seen a single OCer since I arrived in the state and I see no active thread detailing daily OC experiences like the huge on in the NV forum. Where is everybody? love to have a meet-up with a few but trying to find anyone local enough is a chore and a half
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post

    Finally got the article to open, not behind a paywall.
    http://www.gazettextra.com/20140618/...th_ball_fields

    Or here's another way to it:
    http://www.walworthcountytoday.com/a...0619669&Show=0

    But either way, you can't comment unless you're a subscriber. >

    neither work here. is there anything on Guns'n'Freedom, Freedom Outpost or one of the other real news sites? I don't want to fill my head of the propaganda of mainstream media
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Running Wolf View Post
    So everyone should be punished every time an idiot does something idiotic. Good idea . . .

    Thank you so much, I am quite pleased you agree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    neither work here. is there anything on Guns'n'Freedom, Freedom Outpost or one of the other real news sites? I don't want to fill my head of the propaganda of mainstream media
    Copy and paste the title of the article into google. you can then click the returned link to be returned to the site behind the pay wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Why would they waste the money, and are they really allowed to post signs in public parks?


    So he admits it won't stop the behaviour he doesn't like...
    And are those off-duty officers going to leave their self-defense tools in their cars?


    What violations? The law says it's legal to be armed in a public park, and the law says they can't prohibit anyone from carrying legally.


    So he knows what he's doing is illegal. No baiting about it, he's willing to do it.



    Well, maybe, maybe not.
    I'm betting on not.


    http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/943/II/13

    Then there's the later statute, 943.13(1m)(c)(2) which seems as though it might conflict, depending on whether or not the park is occupied by the city or the group which leases it part of the year for games (but I'm guessing they don't do any of the upkeep, so I'd say they don't actually occupy it).



    Are there buildings on the baseball fields?
    And does the baseball group actually occupy the grounds, or only use it once in a while for part of the year?

    Finally got the article to open, not behind a paywall.
    http://www.gazettextra.com/20140618/...th_ball_fields

    Or here's another way to it:
    http://www.walworthcountytoday.com/a...0619669&Show=0

    But either way, you can't comment unless you're a subscriber. >

    Dumb ?, Special events (e.g. sporting events, concerts, etc):

    It is unlawful for any person to enter or remain at a special event if the organizers of the special event have notified the actor not to remain at the special event while carrying a firearm or with that type of firearm. The provision does not apply if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in the parking facility, to any part of the special event grounds or building that is used as a parking facility. The law defines special event as an event that is open to the public, is for a duration of not more than three weeks, and either has designated entrances to and from the event that are locked when the event is closed or requires an admission. Wis. Stat. § 943.13(1m)(c)3.


    Is this a Special Event ??? if so does he not have too, ( The law defines special event as an event that is open to the public, is for a duration of not more than three weeks, and either has designated entrances to and from the event that are locked when the event is closed or requires an admission. Wis. Stat. § 943.13(1m)(c)3. )

    Sooo which entrance are they going to designate ? What kind of locks are they using when the event is closed ? An how much are they Charging ? Is it Possible
    too cram a whole season into three weeks ?

  18. #18
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Alas the world is full of people who promote a delusion for the simple reason that it makes them feel better.

    Had the 'rule' been in place with signage could it have prevented the dimwit from (allegedly) dropping his pistol on the field? Nope; he was from out of town and didn't know about the 'rule'. Perhaps there needs to be another rule about clumsiness and ill-fitting belts or pants?
    Last edited by Maverick9; 06-21-2014 at 11:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Alas the world is full of people who promote a delusion for the simple reason that it makes them feel better.

    Had the 'rule' been in place with signage could it have prevented the dimwit from (allegedly) dropping his pistol on the field? Nope; he was from out of town and didn't know about the 'rule'. Perhaps there needs to be another rule about clumsiness and ill-fitting belts or pants?
    Mr. Gransee's out of town status would not be a viable excuse even if the 'rule' had been in effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Running Wolf View Post
    So everyone should be punished every time an idiot does something idiotic. Good idea . . .
    Why are you responding to the troll Doug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Why are you responding to the troll Doug.
    You forgot

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