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Thread: Lehman caves

  1. #1
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    Lehman caves

    I thought I read once that the cave itself was not a federal building. Can anyone confirm if it is indeed off limits to firearms?
    http://www.nps.gov/grba/parkmgmt/fir...ions.htmWithin the park, the following buildings are designated as "federal facilities" and firearms are prohibited within:

    Lehman Cave
    Great Basin Visitor's Center
    Lehman Caves Visitor's Center
    Café and Gift Shop
    Lower Resource Management Offices
    Great Basin Wildland Fire Engine Bay
    Great Basin Wildland Fire Cache Buildings
    Great Basin Maintenance Complex Buildings
    Protection Offices
    Structural Fire Engine Bay
    SAR Cache/Fitness Center
    Upper Resource Management Offices
    Great Basin Administrative Offices

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Well, it is a guided tour by a federal employee last I knew. I can see them saying that meets the definition of facility because that is where they are working.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Well, it is a guided tour by a federal employee last I knew. I can see them saying that meets the definition of facility because that is where they are working.
    Under that premise I should not have been able to share the trails with the rangers on Mt. Rainier while I was OCing?? (no issue BTW)
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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    I can't say specific to Lehman caves but at one cave in the Fed control one can not be accessed without one going thru the gift shop building blocking any other access. Technically, fully legal to carry in the cave. One just can't legally get to the cave while carrying!:@
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 06-26-2014 at 12:11 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    Under that premise I should not have been able to share the trails with the rangers on Mt. Rainier while I was OCing?? (no issue BTW)
    Lehman Caves has a locked door to gain access and you are in the company of the tour guide at all times. Seems different enough to me.

    I'm not saying that I agree you should be disarmed in a "federal facility" but I can see how they are calling it one for this purpose.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Lehman Caves has a locked door to gain access and you are in the company of the tour guide at all times. Seems different enough to me.

    I'm not saying that I agree you should be disarmed in a "federal facility" but I can see how they are calling it one for this purpose.
    Correct, the cave is seperate from the gift shop and can be accessed without going through the shop.

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    Regular Member turborich's Avatar
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    Why would you need a firearm in the cave? It's a Federal facility and they have plenty of signage there. Just go enjoy yourself, it's a nice escape from the heat.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turborich View Post
    Why would you need a firearm in the cave?....


    You would prefer the firearm be unattended somewhere else?

    Moot anyway, since, as you say, it is a facility, and he HAS to put it somewhere else. Doesn't mean we should accept it without complaint.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    One thing about federal facilities is that you can carry incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. Of course, there hasn't been a test case yet to determine how far you can take "other lawful purposes." Is carrying for self-defense not a lawful purpose?

    There is the guy who had an incompetent attorney who tried to argue the lobby wasn't part of the federal building and lost, and the judge said he didn't meet an exception, but he didn't raise one either.

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
    (e)
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
    (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
    (f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
    Also:

    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
    I visited the caves many years ago. I don't remember what I did as far as carrying. I might have open carried, or maybe I disarmed, or maybe I was just a kid and it was before I carried. I don't remember.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 06-27-2014 at 05:45 PM.

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    I have read that highlighted part before. Seems that would be the out so to speak for feds not trampling the 2nd. Yet no one I guess has ever used it in a case. The feds couldnt stop you from speaking freely on fed property. I never understood how the 1st was always ok but not the 2nd. Why has the the great and powerful OZ (nra) never challenged this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by turborich View Post
    Why would you need a firearm in the cave?
    Rabbit Bats!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2276 View Post
    Rabbit Bats!
    Maybe "rabid"?
    And if you did mean "rabbit bats" I sure hope they don't breed like rabbits!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 06-27-2014 at 11:31 PM.
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    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    ...Why has the the great and powerful OZ (nra) never challenged this?
    There's no money in it yet.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  15. #15
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    Rabbit Bat

    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Is this what happens when you combine Halloween... and Easter?

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Why do I need a gun in a cave? Good God man, have you not seen Monty Python & The Holy Grail!! The killer rabbit alone requires a Holy Hand grenade! (remember: "on the count of 5, not 4, not 6, but 5")
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    Why do I need a gun in a cave? Good God man, have you not seen Monty Python & The Holy Grail!! The killer rabbit alone requires a Holy Hand grenade! (remember: "on the count of 5, not 4, not 6, but 5")
    You would be so toast...

    Quote Originally Posted by Book of Armaments
    And the LORD spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-28-2014 at 08:17 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Maybe "rabid"?
    And if you did mean "rabbit bats" I sure hope they don't breed like rabbits!
    They may well be rabid, too. MAC provided an artist's rendering of an actual rabbit bat; I have something else of interest.

    Government archaeologists have found a rather interesting, primitive petroglyph on a wall inside Lehman Cave (as a side note, Lehman is an Egyptian word meaning, bat who eats carrots.):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    and, here is a more precise artist's rendering"

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This idol was found buried inside Lehman Cave, indicating that the primitive inhabitants of the area actually worshiped rabbit bats:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    finally, here is a very rare photograph of an actual rabbit bat:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  19. #19
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    You would be so toast...
    See, that's why I need a gun. No counting required
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
    http://nwfood.shelfreliance.com

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    See, that's why I need a gun. No counting required
    You're not very good at this game, are you?

    Five or six?
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-29-2014 at 11:13 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Originally Posted by Book of Armaments
    And the LORD spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."
    Apparently, there is a need for several Holy Hand Grenades for those in the Bible who are naughty and engaged in naughtiness.


    1Samuel 17:28
    And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle.

    Proverbs 11:6
    The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in their own naughtiness.
    James 1:21
    Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    So, it appears that one can be naughty as long as his naughtiness is not beyond that naughtiness which is sufficient for one to be naughty.


    Proverbs 6:12
    A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.

    Proverbs 17:4
    A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
    Jeremiah 24:2
    One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.
    Does anyone know if a Holy Hand Grenade is effective against a naughty fig?

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    I have a headache from following that ... and now a new found fear of rabbit bats.. There are rabbits outside my house, and I'm hoping they don't "evolve".. .. and the ones that do, I hope don't become rabid rabbit bats
    Last edited by Steve Larson; 07-07-2014 at 12:48 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member turborich's Avatar
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    There are no bats in that cave. They have left and moved elsewhere. You won't get attacked by any rabid or non rabid bats. Nothing in that cave except a few little tiny critters that you need a microscope to see. There are a lot of stars in the sky at night though

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