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Lehman caves

kdt1970

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
122
Location
Grantsville, Utah, USA
I thought I read once that the cave itself was not a federal building. Can anyone confirm if it is indeed off limits to firearms?
http://www.nps.gov/grba/parkmgmt/firearms-regulations.htmWithin the park, the following buildings are designated as "federal facilities" and firearms are prohibited within:

Lehman Cave
Great Basin Visitor's Center
Lehman Caves Visitor's Center
Café and Gift Shop
Lower Resource Management Offices
Great Basin Wildland Fire Engine Bay
Great Basin Wildland Fire Cache Buildings
Great Basin Maintenance Complex Buildings
Protection Offices
Structural Fire Engine Bay
SAR Cache/Fitness Center
Upper Resource Management Offices
Great Basin Administrative Offices
 

MAC702

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Jul 31, 2011
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Nevada
Well, it is a guided tour by a federal employee last I knew. I can see them saying that meets the definition of facility because that is where they are working.
 

golddigger14s

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Lawton, OK USA
Well, it is a guided tour by a federal employee last I knew. I can see them saying that meets the definition of facility because that is where they are working.
Under that premise I should not have been able to share the trails with the rangers on Mt. Rainier while I was OCing?? (no issue BTW)
 

JoeSparky

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Jun 20, 2008
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Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
I can't say specific to Lehman caves but at one cave in the Fed control one can not be accessed without one going thru the gift shop building blocking any other access. Technically, fully legal to carry in the cave. One just can't legally get to the cave while carrying!:mad:
 
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MAC702

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Under that premise I should not have been able to share the trails with the rangers on Mt. Rainier while I was OCing?? (no issue BTW)

Lehman Caves has a locked door to gain access and you are in the company of the tour guide at all times. Seems different enough to me.

I'm not saying that I agree you should be disarmed in a "federal facility" but I can see how they are calling it one for this purpose.
 

kdt1970

Regular Member
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Aug 21, 2009
Messages
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Location
Grantsville, Utah, USA
Lehman Caves has a locked door to gain access and you are in the company of the tour guide at all times. Seems different enough to me.

I'm not saying that I agree you should be disarmed in a "federal facility" but I can see how they are calling it one for this purpose.

Correct, the cave is seperate from the gift shop and can be accessed without going through the shop.
 

turborich

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2012
Messages
176
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Why would you need a firearm in the cave? It's a Federal facility and they have plenty of signage there. Just go enjoy yourself, it's a nice escape from the heat.
 

MAC702

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Nevada
Why would you need a firearm in the cave?....

h0C5C787D


You would prefer the firearm be unattended somewhere else?

Moot anyway, since, as you say, it is a facility, and he HAS to put it somewhere else. Doesn't mean we should accept it without complaint.
 

Felid`Maximus

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Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,712
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
One thing about federal facilities is that you can carry incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. Of course, there hasn't been a test case yet to determine how far you can take "other lawful purposes." Is carrying for self-defense not a lawful purpose?

There is the guy who had an incompetent attorney who tried to argue the lobby wasn't part of the federal building and lost, and the judge said he didn't meet an exception, but he didn't raise one either.

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

Also:

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

I visited the caves many years ago. I don't remember what I did as far as carrying. I might have open carried, or maybe I disarmed, or maybe I was just a kid and it was before I carried. I don't remember.
 
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Vegassteve

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
1,763
Location
Las Vegas NV, ,
I have read that highlighted part before. Seems that would be the out so to speak for feds not trampling the 2nd. Yet no one I guess has ever used it in a case. The feds couldnt stop you from speaking freely on fed property. I never understood how the 1st was always ok but not the 2nd. Why has the the great and powerful OZ (nra) never challenged this?
 

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
Why do I need a gun in a cave? Good God man, have you not seen Monty Python & The Holy Grail!! The killer rabbit alone requires a Holy Hand grenade! (remember: "on the count of 5, not 4, not 6, but 5")
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
Why do I need a gun in a cave? Good God man, have you not seen Monty Python & The Holy Grail!! The killer rabbit alone requires a Holy Hand grenade! (remember: "on the count of 5, not 4, not 6, but 5")

You would be so toast...

Book of Armaments said:
And the LORD spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."
 
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ed2276

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
366
Location
Las Vegas,NV
Maybe "rabid"?
And if you did mean "rabbit bats" I sure hope they don't breed like rabbits!

They may well be rabid, too. MAC provided an artist's rendering of an actual rabbit bat; I have something else of interest.

Government archaeologists have found a rather interesting, primitive petroglyph on a wall inside Lehman Cave (as a side note, Lehman is an Egyptian word meaning, bat who eats carrots.):

Bat Rabbit 2.jpg

and, here is a more precise artist's rendering"

rabbit_bat.jpg

This idol was found buried inside Lehman Cave, indicating that the primitive inhabitants of the area actually worshiped rabbit bats:

rabbit bat worship.jpg




finally, here is a very rare photograph of an actual rabbit bat:

Rabbit Bat.jpg
 
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