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Thread: Mlive - OpenCarry.org does not advocate for long gun carry; urges good ambasadorship

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    Mlive - OpenCarry.org does not advocate for long gun carry; urges good ambasadorship

    http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/...encounter.html

    SNIP

    Michigan is one of 30 states where guns can be carried most places in public without a permit, according to John Pierce, a Virginia-based attorney and co-founder of OpenCarry.org, a website that advocates for the open carry of holstered handguns across the country.

    "That is more than a majority that allow anyone who can legally own a handgun to wear it openly as they go about their daily lives," Pierce said.
    . . .

    Pierce said OpenCarry.org does not advocate for the open carry of long guns. In part, that's because a long gun on a sling doesn't have its trigger guarded like a handgun in a holster, Pierce said.

    . . . Pierce said not all open carriers are good advocates for the cause.

    "That person from what I saw, while probably within his legal right, that person was not being a good ambassador by swearing," Pierce said.

    "We want to be good ambassadors," Pierce added. "When people think back about it, we don't want them to think, 'Wow, what a person that was swearing at an officer.'"

    . . .

    "In California, open carry of long guns used to be allowed and open carry of unloaded handguns used to be allowed," he said. "What you have now is they don't allow open carry and they are what we call a may-issue concealed-carry state, which means in certain jurisdictions, unless you're connected, you can't get a carry permit."

    He said the restrictions in California are "absolutely" unconstitutional since, in his view, the Second Amendment requires all states to allow open carry in some form.

    . . .
    Last edited by Mike; 06-22-2014 at 01:20 PM.

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    Odd twist on things there, really odd.

    while clearly the man was carrying a long gun, the officer was being more than polite and explained the stop was about the illegal street crossing not the gun.

    Sure the gun adds to the concern, but I think you would hear any cop say that anyone acting so oddly confrontational with ANY weapon would be cause for concern.

    Glad everyone went home safe, there is nothing illegal about acting odd, but I think the police did a decent job handling this situation, the 911 operator was even inquiring as to how it was being carried to try and access threat level.

    Got no issue complaining about poor interactions with police, but this one seemed handled well from a first perspective.
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    Police don't want a plethora of obscenities being tossed at them? Then leave people alone .. what else do they want?

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    Here in Louisiana our organization, Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League (LOCAL), exists to promote the fact that Open Carry (OC) is legal in Louisiana and to spread knowledge about the laws concerning OC. We don't promote Long Gun Carry at this time because of the issues with muzzle control and that a handgun is a much more practical method of self defense for the average person in their daily life in our opinion. We like that it is legal to do so and in times of civil unrest long gun carry can make sense in addition to one's handgun. For every day carry... not so much.

    Carrying a long gun, without a compelling reason like civil unrest to do so, when you can carry a handgun isn't a great idea IMHO. The issues of muzzle control and the unshielded trigger as well as the constant handling of the weapon is an invitation to disaster not to mention the issue of public perception. Don't get me wrong, I am all for it being legal to do so! It's just that there ARE times and places where it is 100% the right choice. If you want to open carry and it's legal to carry a handgun or a long gun, go with the handgun in a good quality retention holster!

    Carrying long guns, especially with one's hand on the grip, even with the trigger finger properly indexed, makes everyone uncomfortable. You don't carry your pistols that way do you? No, you keep your fingers/hands away from your weapon unless it is needed! Also, we handle our pistols as little as is possible because we know the more you handle a firearm, the more chances there are for accidents to happen. With a long gun, you are constantly having to handle the weapon. You have to un-sling/move it to sit down, get in your vehicle or even reach your keys/wallet sometimes. In short, we don't believe this is the way to win the hearts and minds of the general public and advance Open Carry, of ANY kind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    Here in Louisiana our organization, Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League (LOCAL), exists to promote the fact that Open Carry (OC) is legal in Louisiana and to spread knowledge about the laws concerning OC. We don't promote Long Gun Carry at this time because of the issues with muzzle control and that a handgun is a much more practical method of self defense for the average person in their daily life in our opinion. We like that it is legal to do so and in times of civil unrest long gun carry can make sense in addition to one's handgun. For every day carry... not so much.

    Carrying a long gun, without a compelling reason like civil unrest to do so, when you can carry a handgun isn't a great idea IMHO. The issues of muzzle control and the unshielded trigger as well as the constant handling of the weapon is an invitation to disaster not to mention the issue of public perception. Don't get me wrong, I am all for it being legal to do so! It's just that there ARE times and places where it is 100% the right choice. If you want to open carry and it's legal to carry a handgun or a long gun, go with the handgun in a good quality retention holster!

    Carrying long guns, especially with one's hand on the grip, even with the trigger finger properly indexed, makes everyone uncomfortable. You don't carry your pistols that way do you? No, you keep your fingers/hands away from your weapon unless it is needed! Also, we handle our pistols as little as is possible because we know the more you handle a firearm, the more chances there are for accidents to happen. With a long gun, you are constantly having to handle the weapon. You have to un-sling/move it to sit down, get in your vehicle or even reach your keys/wallet sometimes. In short, we don't believe this is the way to win the hearts and minds of the general public and advance Open Carry, of ANY kind.


    You arguments about long guns are the same that lizzurds make about handguns ... you do know that, right? need to do a 180 on what you think a right is or is not.

    This forum is not dedicated to long gun OC but does not try to dissuade folks from long gun carry. And long guns are the best OC option for many people including people with disabilities that cannot handle a smaller framed weapon . Looks like you are happy to let these people be unprotected. That's nice.

    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 07-20-2016 at 11:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post

    You arguments about long guns are the same that lizzurds make about handguns ... you do know that, right? need to do a 180 on what you think a right is or is not.

    This forum is not dedicated to long gun OC but does not try to dissuade folks from long gun carry. And long guns are the best OC option for many people including people with disabilities that cannot handle a smaller framed weapon . Looks like you are happy to let these people be unprotected. That's nice.
    This forum does discourage long gun carry. Read rule #15 which says in part, "We do NOT promote the carry of long guns."

    Further, your post would seem to directly insult HeroHog. Such must cease. Enough is enough!
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-20-2016 at 12:07 PM. Reason: fixed
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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    {Sigh}... I understand disabilities, hell, I have to use a wheelchair. To effectively carry a gun I have to use a shoulder holster or some other method that puts the gun in an easily accessible area. If you have a need to carry a long gun, carry a long gun! I am fine with that. If you have a pressing need to carry a gun and only own a long gun, carry it! Do I think a pistol is NORMALLY a better choice for daily carry if that is something you can physically handle, yes! If you are in a situation where you are likely to encounter a riot or be in a "battle" type situation would a rifle be a nice thing to have? Of course! I know a lot of people who have shotguns or rifles in their vehicles when things start getting sketchy in bigger cities where they live. A SUB 2000 in your back seat in a briefcase with a few 30 round magazines is handy and dandy.

    I am FOR keeping long guns legal for open carry and, as a young man, carried one in the aftermath of a hurricane to prevent looky-loos from driving down our street causing wakes and flooding people's homes. A cop drove by, asked me what was up, I told him, he said "good job" and drove off. (this was years ago in Lafayette, LA)

    Notice the OC pistol sticking out of my bag


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    I'm involved with multiple sclerosis causes. I have spoken to people who quit carrying because they would need to carry a long gun v. a hand gun and all the lizzurd arguments turned them not to carry.

    And what is a handgun v. long gun anyway? Its arbitrary really....made up by laws. A gun is a gun in my opinion. Again, another way antis try to get us to fight among ourselves.

    One gun with a 12 " barrel is a handgun and one with a 12.000001" barrel is not a long gun.

    Wait until they pass laws defining handguns with 1" barrels and anything longer is a long gun.

    And on the forum, it has been allowed to discuss long gun carry for those underage to handgun carry. I think that the rule has been historically been interpreted as I said ... that the site generally does not promote LG carry but does not actively discourage it either.

    Carry on !

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    What baffles me is why bring a dead issue, and thread to life? What was the motive behind it?

    The subject came up by HH in a thread about officer's murder, and the issue was not about LG. The issue was police response that the shooter used to target/ambush the officers. It would not have been any different if it was a handgun. Since LG is off topic, leave it alone, don't instigate.

    I have my own issues David, but that does not change that this is tantrum throwing because not getting someone's way in another thread, and dragging it to another one. It is a good way to lose respect.

    I also want to add that bashing LAC because they do things differently but legal is also against the rules. HH should not be allowed to bash LG carry, he should follow the rules and not re open a thread that is over a year old for that purpose.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 07-20-2016 at 02:13 PM.
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    While it is true, to a degree, that "a gun is a gun," the degree of safety in which you can safely carry it about in public differs generally, again, trigger exposure muzzle control and the amount it must be physically handled, all things which are proven to be contributors to NDs when carrying a gun.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    This continued attempt to start a flame war over long gun carry which is not allowed needs to stop. The carry another person chooses as long as legal is none of another person's business. Personal choice, and personal responsibility are the backbone of this country. I ask that this thread be locked, and that no further attempts to bash LG OC be treated by the rules that are set out.

    I am not sure what has caused an otherwise good member to act out, but please stop it before it goes down hill more.
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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    I've "bashed" nothing, merely shown reasons for thinking it impractical for everyday carry and shown good reasons for that conclusion. I have also noted that there are exceptions and I and the organization I support, have no desire to see the law changed in any way. You and your friends were the ones who started all the harping prompting me to respond as I had been repeatedly misquoted, had my statements completely misinterpreted and my motives and character besmirched.

    As to my motives for this thread, I happened to notice it and after reading it, not noticing the dates, I thought it would be interesting to show that an organization elsewhere had basically the same thought, nothing more. Y'all read WAY too much that isn't there into other people's posts.

    I'm done.
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    You are discussing long gun carry, which nobody is pushing. You ARE trying to stir up scat!

    Let it go! It is none of your business how people go about legally, or mine. If it was brought up I could understand, but it was not. YOU brought it up now you won't let it go until you get a flame war going.

    The murder in BR had nothing to do with LG OC, it had to do with a madman. It was not the guns fault no matter what kind of gun. The police response which is what I was talking about you think was justified because he was carrying a LG while dressed in black. It was not justified, and the response got 3 of them killed. Had they waited until he broke a law, which he would have they would have used more caution.

    So let's drop the LG bashing.
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    I appreciate reading HeroHog's and his organization's perspective on this matter. And while the thread may be old, the issue is still very pertinent.

    Furthermore, it was a great chance to re-read Mike's comments in the OP, and the quote of John's words in the interview. They are good reminders that while we are all individually responsible for our choices, we are also ambassadors for the cause of open carry....whether we want to be or not.


    Pierce said not all open carriers are good advocates for the cause.

    "That person from what I saw, while probably within his legal right, that person was not being a good ambassador by swearing," Pierce said.

    "We want to be good ambassadors," Pierce added. "When people think back about it, we don't want them to think, 'Wow, what a person that was swearing at an officer.'"

    We get to choose whether to be a good ambassador or a bad ambassadors. But once we choose to visibly carry a gun, we no longer get to choose not to be an ambassador. One reason this forum exists is to "[urge] good ambassadorship" rather than bad for the open carry--and I would suggest all RKBA--of firearms. Indeed, we might surmise that many choose to open carry precisely because it is the most direct method to help promote a pro-RKBA message.

    It is good to be reminded of that occasionally, especially by someone like John Pierce's words in the interview, or Mike's OP.

    Just because something is and must be legal, doesn't mean that it should be encouraged. Freedom of speech is crucial. We MUST retain our right to swear, and to swear at police officers. That doesn't mean that doing so indiscriminately or without cause is going to be of benefit to the goals of this forum.

    The exact same thing can--and now by a couple of different pro-RKBA organizations has been--said regarding long gun carry.


    As for insults, flame wars, or other such juvenile issues, I've seen none here except from McBeth, and in the form of unsupported allegations from someone who wants to see a thread locked rather than allow a well known and respected member share some very relevant information with the forum. We all know what McBeth is. Others should re-examine their conduct and perhaps motives.

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    Last edited by utbagpiper; 07-20-2016 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Corrected conflation of Mike and John's names.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    This forum does discourage long gun carry. Read rule #15 which says in part, "We do NOT promote the carry of long guns."

    Further, your post would seem to directly insult HeroHog. Such must cease. Enough is enough!
    Sigh... 'Not encouraging' and 'discouraging' are plainly different things, and 'not promoting' is decidedly different still from both of those.

    Let the site's official position be whatever Mr. Pierce et al desire, but when they pick and state their position, let's not loosely substitute swaths of it with near-misses.

    I've OCed with individuals who have holsters that don't cover the trigger guard of their pistol. I'm curious if OCDO would 'not promote' using such a holster as adamantly as they 'don't promote' LGOC. I'm not looking for an answer - just food for thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    I've "bashed" nothing, merely shown reasons for thinking it impractical for everyday carry and shown good reasons for that conclusion. I have also noted that there are exceptions and I and the organization I support, have no desire to see the law changed in any way. You and your friends were the ones who started all the harping prompting me to respond as I had been repeatedly misquoted, had my statements completely misinterpreted and my motives and character besmirched.

    As to my motives for this thread, I happened to notice it and after reading it, not noticing the dates, I thought it would be interesting to show that an organization elsewhere had basically the same thought, nothing more. Y'all read WAY too much that isn't there into other people's posts.

    I'm done.
    HH, the organization you support does not condone LG carry according to their website, quote Yes it is legal to open carry rifles/shotguns but for several reasons we do not advocate for it at this time. Our organization is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life. We do NOT promote the carry of long guns. unquote
    http://www.laopencarry.org/faq.shtml#LongGuns

    did i miss the mention of civil unrest LG carry exceptions the organization supports as their statement seems quite definitive in their statement.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    --snipped--

    It is good to be reminded of that occasionally, especially by someone like Mike Pierce.


    As for insults, flame wars, or other such juvenile issues, I've seen none here except from McBeth, and in the form of unsupported allegations from someone who wants to see a thread locked rather than allow a well known and respected member share some very relevant information with the forum. We all know what McBeth is. Others should re-examine their conduct and perhaps motives.

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    There is no 'Mike Pierce.' The OP of this thread is Mike Stollenwerk. John Pierce (OCDO Administrator) has not posted on this thread.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-20-2016 at 04:37 PM.
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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    HH, the organization you support does not condone LG carry according to their website, quote Yes it is legal to open carry rifles/shotguns but for several reasons we do not advocate for it at this time. Our organization is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life. We do NOT promote the carry of long guns. unquote
    http://www.laopencarry.org/faq.shtml#LongGuns

    did i miss the mention of civil unrest LG carry exceptions the organization supports as their statement seems quite definitive in their statement.

    ipse
    Again with this stuff... do you see anywhere in there where we "bash" long guns? Not promoting is NOT the same as suppressing or dissuading. As to the rest, I take it you haven't seen all the articles we've published in our newsletters, in our forums and in our email replies to the many questions that are asked of us pretty much daily? Of course you haven't! The emails are private and some forum areas are limited to LOCAL members and I don't see you taking the time to search all of our multiple media sites. Please, let it go! Just because we don't actively promote it for daily use and believe that there is a better way in general doesn't make us/me an anti in any way.
    Last edited by HeroHog; 07-20-2016 at 05:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    This forum does discourage long gun carry.
    Does OCDO truly discourage LGOCO or does it simply not promote it?

    I was just asking for clarification. After all I do not promote hot public lesbian mud wrestling but I don't exactly discourage it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Does OCDO truly discourage LGOCO or does it simply not promote it?

    I was just asking for clarification. After all I do not promote hot public lesbian mud wrestling but I don't exactly discourage it.
    It would seem it is OK to make derogatory statements about LGOC, but not respond to those statements. My understanding of the rule is that LGOC is off topic, apparently not for everybody.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Sigh... 'Not encouraging' and 'discouraging' are plainly different things, and 'not promoting' is decidedly different still from both of those.

    Let the site's official position be whatever Mr. Pierce et al desire, but when they pick and state their position, let's not loosely substitute swaths of it with near-misses.

    I've OCed with individuals who have holsters that don't cover the trigger guard of their pistol. I'm curious if OCDO would 'not promote' using such a holster as adamantly as they 'don't promote' LGOC. I'm not looking for an answer - just food for thought.
    IMO not promoting is not promoting, it does not give latitude to bring up one sided attacks. If we are not promoting then taping the mouths of those on her who do support or LGOC for ONE or TWO members to take liberties with other peoples liberties. Bashing others forms of carry is not supporting the RKBA. I think the rules should be clarified as to know if one sided attacks are going to be accepted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Does OCDO truly discourage LGOCO or does it simply not promote it?

    I was just asking for clarification. After all I do not promote hot public lesbian mud wrestling but I don't exactly discourage it.
    My understanding is the discussuon of LGOC is verboten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There is no 'Mike Pierce.' The OP of this thread is Mike Stollenwerk. John Pierce (OCDO Administrator) has not posted on this thread.
    Thank you for the correction. I read Mike's OP which contained the quote from John Pierce, and conflated the two names. My apologies. I've edited my post to reflect the correct names.
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    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  24. #24
    State Researcher
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Bashing others forms of carry is not supporting the RKBA.
    That is true.

    It is as true for concealed/discrete carry as it is for long gun carry.

    I haven't seen anyone bashing on long gun carry.

    I routinely see a few members who bash on concealed/discrete carry or on those persons who choose to carry discretely. Would that such anti-CC bashers would heed your counsel.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    North Carolina
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    12,279
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    My understanding is the discussuon of LGOC is verboten.

    Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk
    That was my understanding, but apparently not as long as the person is putting it down.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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