Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 31

Thread: Allowed to defend a 3rd party?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    3

    Question Allowed to defend a 3rd party?

    Hi (new here),
    Had an incident happen in Seattle over the weekend that left a big burning "what if" question. While walking in downtown Seattle, I came across a fight that had broken out. It evolved pretty quickly into two guys kicking the face in on another guy. I attempted to cross the street but was un-able to do so quickly enough (traffic). The "attackers" (I don't know who started the fight) fled and left this guy covered in blood. I was only armed with my phone at the time and was able to call an ambulance while another party called the cops.

    My question is; If I had been carrying at the time, would I be legally allowed to defend the guy getting his ass kicked? For arguments sake, since I'm not going to shoot through traffic, lets say I was able to cross the road prior to the attackers taking off. RCW 9.41.270 - Makes it sound as if I would be intimidating the attackers, and not legally allowed to draw on them.

    *I was bar hoping that night, which is why I wasn't carrying*
    **Not sure why people in Seattle like to sit and watch. Must have been 10 people on the other side just standing and watching this guy getting beat to death**

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    9A.16.020
    Use of force — When lawful.

    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

    (1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

    (4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

    (5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

    (6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.

    [1986 c 149 § 2; 1979 ex.s. c 244 § 7; 1977 ex.s. c 80 § 13; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.020.]

  3. #3
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    RCW 9.41.270 would not be a deterrent
    9.41.270 Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.
    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
    (2).... snipped
    (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-22-2014 at 10:20 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    3
    From that, I would say I could draw but not fire unless they started to attack me. I'm not going to fire on someone who is not attacking me but I would get in between them and the person being attacked. They didn't have any visible weapons on them and I suspect would have backed away if I gotten there sooner. Either way, thank you for posting that RCW. Im not the type of guy to sit back and watch someone get seriously injured or killed. Im also not going to fire with other people around unless I have no other option.

    *Edit* and apparently I don't do so well at reading RCW's - sorry....
    Last edited by samadkins29; 06-22-2014 at 10:23 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    I would say if the life of the 3rd party was in jeopardy it would be lawful and moral to fire.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  6. #6
    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Pierce County, Washington
    Posts
    792
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or
    You are within the law to use lethal force to defend a 3rd party who is the victim of a felony/grievous bodily harm.
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
    1) Liberals never quit until they are satisfied.
    2) Liberals are never satisfied.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Common law regarding citizen's arrest would also likely be in the OP's favor...using reasonable force.

    Kicking someone when they are down could reasonably be inferred to be attempted murder.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 06-23-2014 at 02:34 AM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,192
    The defending of a third is legal in many states.

    Ones has to be very careful as a lot of times the situation isn't as it seems.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,147
    Quote Originally Posted by samadkins29 View Post
    [ ... ] They didn't have any visible weapons on them... [ ... ]
    They did have, and were employing, visible weapons, fists and boots.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,135
    samadkins29, let me say, Welcome to OCDO. You will find a great number of good people here, and a few buttheads.
    Curios tho, how did you find us?
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  11. #11
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Mid-atlantic
    Posts
    1,505
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    samadkins29, let me say, Welcome to OCDO. You will find a great number of good people here, and a few buttheads.
    Curios tho, how did you find us?
    Uh surprised people find the need to self-identify, but meh...

    On the 'inserting yourself into a 3rd party dispute.
    1. You are still liable in court and financially for every bullet you expel. Choose carefully, since you will be disarmed (evidence) and your family will be without a protector if you go to jail or are detained, and you will be without your firearm at minimum.
    2. You must be sure to review carefully the liability laws for civil damages if you harm a kid just trying to turn his life around
    3. If you are seen with a firearm at the scene of a crime in progress, and over-zealous cop might shoot you
    4. See #3 and insert over-zealous and foolish carrier, though Law abiding who doesn't know you were a rescuer
    5. You might shoot an undercover cop who is just employing perp-calming techniques

    If you miss, if you don't terminate the BG and they find out your name you may have to move out of state (low probability but not out of the question). BGs are violent and vindictive.

    I won't play the 'might get your firearm taken' card, or the BG #3&4 seeing you and shooting you, but the point is chaos could ensue. You did the absolute best thing by calling and perhaps videoing the perps (did you have a camera?)

    HTH
    Last edited by Maverick9; 06-23-2014 at 11:24 AM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Snohomish, WA
    Posts
    150
    You got to be smart about this. Let say a dude fighting another dude in a fist fight. You can do something about it but don't draw your weapon, if someones life isn't in risk, then don't worry. In the OP case, if a guy is getting jumped, you could draw, I wouldn't fire unless they come to attack you. But for serious crimes like the big three; theft, murder, and rape. You are allowed to defend anyone and everyone with deadly force. But you have to take it case by case so be careful.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Mid-atlantic
    Posts
    1,505
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriona View Post
    You got to be smart about this. Let say a dude fighting another dude in a fist fight. You can do something about it but don't draw your weapon, if someones life isn't in risk, then don't worry. In the OP case, if a guy is getting jumped, you could draw, I wouldn't fire unless they come to attack you. But for serious crimes like the big three; theft, murder, and rape. You are allowed to defend anyone and everyone with deadly force. But you have to take it case by case so be careful.
    I hope you never take your own advice, my fren, because while you are standing there, firearm drawn, you might not be safe if help arrives unknown to you. Keep your firearm in your pocket and your nose out of other people's business is my advice. Protect yourself and your loved ones if and only if it's in the gravest extreme. Once you shoot/kill someone your life will never be the same.

    Remember, 'being allowed' is not the final word. You have to PROVE the circumstances warranted it. You have to PROVE there was disparity of force. You will be arrested and charged and have to hope the DA sees your intervention as mitigated by the current law and moreover, the currently held interpretation of it.

  14. #14
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,271
    About 30 years ago I came across a gay bashing while leaving a all night pharmacy. 6 guys beating one guy outside of a gay bar. I returned to the counter and told the clerk to call police. I exited, pulled badge and gun, and ID myself, beating stopped, back up arrived, victim REFUSED to press charges. All 6 were let go. I accomplished little, risked my own life, and had some mad co workers who responded to a officer needs assistance for someone who refused to sign a complaint.

    I will be a good witness, might even yell out I am calling police and recording, but unless it is absolutely dire I will not get directly involved.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Snohomish, WA
    Posts
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    I hope you never take your own advice, my fren, because while you are standing there, firearm drawn, you might not be safe if help arrives unknown to you. Keep your firearm in your pocket and your nose out of other people's business is my advice. Protect yourself and your loved ones if and only if it's in the gravest extreme. Once you shoot/kill someone your life will never be the same.

    Remember, 'being allowed' is not the final word. You have to PROVE the circumstances warranted it. You have to PROVE there was disparity of force. You will be arrested and charged and have to hope the DA sees your intervention as mitigated by the current law and moreover, the currently held interpretation of it.
    I just said exactly what you said. I do not care about what you think what is right or wrong. I only care about what law says I can and cannot do. I am allowed to defend a third party; will I? That is something only I can answer when the time comes. Society, both government and the people tend to give a pass for the big three; murder, rape, and theft. The most serious crimes one can commit to another human that creates the largest fallout to victim crimes.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,192
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    About 30 years ago I came across a gay bashing while leaving a all night pharmacy. 6 guys beating one guy outside of a gay bar. I returned to the counter and told the clerk to call police. I exited, pulled badge and gun, and ID myself, beating stopped, back up arrived, victim REFUSED to press charges. All 6 were let go. I accomplished little, risked my own life, and had some mad co workers who responded to a officer needs assistance for someone who refused to sign a complaint.

    I will be a good witness, might even yell out I am calling police and recording, but unless it is absolutely dire I will not get directly involved.
    All of us who have been an LEO can tell many a story about 3 party defense it isn't always a clear as one would like it to be.

    More then one so called victim has turned on the Quote so called rescuing party.

    Be very careful about getting involved with 3rd party defense if you do not know personally what is going on.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  17. #17
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    Cops are 3rd party in most cases too,,,,,, just saying.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,327
    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Ones has to be very careful as a lot of times the situation isn't as it seems.
    This!

  19. #19
    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Graham, , USA
    Posts
    343
    I know this thread is getting pretty close to its expiration date, but....

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

    Edmund Burke


  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky508 View Post
    I know this thread is getting pretty close to its expiration date, but....

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

    Edmund Burke
    I don't think he had breaking up a bar fight or drunks fighting in mind ...

  21. #21
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Kicking someone when they are down could reasonably be inferred to be attempted murder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Police Officer Shandy Cobane
    I am going to kick the (expletive) Mexican piss out of you homey


    Explicit intent
    Photographic evidence
    $150,000 civil rights settlement

    "[SPD Officer] Cobane was suspended for 30 days without pay but got to keep his job, and prosecutors declined to file criminal charges against him."

    IDK, attempted murder would seem harsh, but several other crimes do seem to fit (i.e. racially motivated assault)

  22. #22
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    [
    RCW 9A.76.030
    Refusing to summon aid for a peace officer.

    (1) A person is guilty of refusing to summon aid for a peace officer if, upon request by a person he or she knows to be a peace officer, he or she unreasonably refuses or fails to summon aid for such peace officer.

    (2) Refusing to summon aid for a peace officer is a misdemeanor.

    **DISCLAIMER! Yes, I know that neither of these statutes require the bystander to do anything more than summon aid.**
    Interesting since LEO suffer no legal repercussions for refusing to give aid. "Keep the peace" does not equal "protect individual citizens." When that changes I might feel that law you cite creates a personal obligation.

    Real heroes:


    Fake heros: http://www.king5.com/news/investigat...116965123.html
    The violence of Mardi Gras 2001 was so fierce, so random, it left people asking -- can this be Seattle? It was Seattle. But even police commanders seemed to be in denial, holding back squads of riot clad officers for hours while the beatings continued.
    And now after the fact it comes out that the SPD was also sitting on their hands while women were raped at the Mardi Gras riot. If you have a little google-fu you can find the award winning picture of the sexual assault. Yeah I almost puked on my keyboard in disgust while writing that. We live in an effed up world.

    That award winning pic lends a lot more credence to the claim that this man died trying to prevent a sexual assault, as the SPD watched from rooftops:


    Anyways, when LEO have a duty to protect me, then I may accept a law requiring me to aid them has some weight.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 07-03-2014 at 02:49 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky508 View Post
    I know this thread is getting pretty close to its expiration date, but....

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

    Edmund Burke
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I don't think he had breaking up a bar fight or drunks fighting in mind ...
    Probably not, and not what I think Sparky was getting at.

    If boys voluntarily get into fisticuffs. Let em go.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Bremerton, Washington
    Posts
    593
    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

    Edmund Burke

    "In a democracy, the majority of the citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority."

    Edmund Burke

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

    Edmund Burke

    "In a democracy, the majority of the citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority."

    Edmund Burke

    I like it!

    The principle that the majority have a right to rule the minority, practically resolves all government into a mere contest between two bodies of men, as to which of them shall be masters, and which of them slaves; a contest, that --- however bloody --- can, in the nature of things, never be finally closed, so long as man refuses to be a slave.- Lysander Spooner

    It is not improbable that many or most of the worst of governments --- although established by force, and by a few, in the first place --- come, in time, to be supported by a majority. But if they do, this majority is composed, in large part, of the most ignorant, superstitious, timid, dependent, servile, and corrupt portions of the people; of those who have been over-awed by the power, intelligence, wealth, and arrogance; of those who have been deceived by the frauds; and of those who have been corrupted by the inducements, of the few who really constitute the government. Such majorities, very likely, could be found in half, perhaps nine-tenths, of all the countries on the globe. What do they prove? Nothing but the tyranny and corruption of the very governments that have reduced so large portions of [*9] the people to their present ignorance, servility, degradation, and corruption; an ignorance, servility, degradation, and corruption that are best illustrated in the simple fact that they do sustain governments that have so oppressed, degraded, and corrupted them. They do nothing towards proving that the governments themselves are legitimate; or that they ought to be sustained, or even endured, by those who understand their true character. The mere fact, therefore, that a government chances to be sustained by a majority, of itself proves nothing that is necessary to be proved, in order to know whether such government should be sustained, or not.-Lysander Spooner
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •