Allowed to defend a 3rd party?

Hi (new here),
Had an incident happen in Seattle over the weekend that left a big burning "what if" question. While walking in downtown Seattle, I came across a fight that had broken out. It evolved pretty quickly into two guys kicking the face in on another guy. I attempted to cross the street but was un-able to do so quickly enough (traffic). The "attackers" (I don't know who started the fight) fled and left this guy covered in blood. I was only armed with my phone at the time and was able to call an ambulance while another party called the cops.

My question is; If I had been carrying at the time, would I be legally allowed to defend the guy getting his ass kicked? For arguments sake, since I'm not going to shoot through traffic, lets say I was able to cross the road prior to the attackers taking off. RCW 9.41.270 - Makes it sound as if I would be intimidating the attackers, and not legally allowed to draw on them.

*I was bar hoping that night, which is why I wasn't carrying*
**Not sure why people in Seattle like to sit and watch. Must have been 10 people on the other side just standing and watching this guy getting beat to death**

9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

(5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

(6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.

[1986 c 149 § 2; 1979 ex.s. c 244 § 7; 1977 ex.s. c 80 § 13; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.020.]

RCW 9.41.270 would not be a deterrent
9.41.270 Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

From that, I would say I could draw but not fire unless they started to attack me. I'm not going to fire on someone who is not attacking me but I would get in between them and the person being attacked. They didn't have any visible weapons on them and I suspect would have backed away if I gotten there sooner. Either way, thank you for posting that RCW. Im not the type of guy to sit back and watch someone get seriously injured or killed. Im also not going to fire with other people around unless I have no other option.

*Edit* and apparently I don't do so well at reading RCW's - sorry....

I would say if the life of the 3rd party was in jeopardy it would be lawful and moral to fire.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

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You are within the law to use lethal force to defend a 3rd party who is the victim of a felony/grievous bodily harm.

Common law regarding citizen's arrest would also likely be in the OP's favor...using reasonable force.

Kicking someone when they are down could reasonably be inferred to be attempted murder.

The defending of a third is legal in many states.

Ones has to be very careful as a lot of times the situation isn't as it seems.

samadkins29, let me say, Welcome to OCDO. You will find a great number of good people here, and a few buttheads.
Curios tho, how did you find us?

MSG Laigaie said:

samadkins29, let me say, Welcome to OCDO. You will find a great number of good people here, and a few buttheads.
Curios tho, how did you find us?

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Uh surprised people find the need to self-identify, but meh...

On the 'inserting yourself into a 3rd party dispute.
1. You are still liable in court and financially for every bullet you expel. Choose carefully, since you will be disarmed (evidence) and your family will be without a protector if you go to jail or are detained, and you will be without your firearm at minimum.
2. You must be sure to review carefully the liability laws for civil damages if you harm a kid just trying to turn his life around
3. If you are seen with a firearm at the scene of a crime in progress, and over-zealous cop might shoot you
4. See #3 and insert over-zealous and foolish carrier, though Law abiding who doesn't know you were a rescuer
5. You might shoot an undercover cop who is just employing perp-calming techniques

If you miss, if you don't terminate the BG and they find out your name you may have to move out of state (low probability but not out of the question). BGs are violent and vindictive.

I won't play the 'might get your firearm taken' card, or the BG #3&4 seeing you and shooting you, but the point is chaos could ensue. You did the absolute best thing by calling and perhaps videoing the perps (did you have a camera?)

HTH

You got to be smart about this. Let say a dude fighting another dude in a fist fight. You can do something about it but don't draw your weapon, if someones life isn't in risk, then don't worry. In the OP case, if a guy is getting jumped, you could draw, I wouldn't fire unless they come to attack you. But for serious crimes like the big three; theft, murder, and rape. You are allowed to defend anyone and everyone with deadly force. But you have to take it case by case so be careful.

Seriona said:

You got to be smart about this. Let say a dude fighting another dude in a fist fight. You can do something about it but don't draw your weapon, if someones life isn't in risk, then don't worry. In the OP case, if a guy is getting jumped, you could draw, I wouldn't fire unless they come to attack you. But for serious crimes like the big three; theft, murder, and rape. You are allowed to defend anyone and everyone with deadly force. But you have to take it case by case so be careful.

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I hope you never take your own advice, my fren, because while you are standing there, firearm drawn, you might not be safe if help arrives unknown to you. Keep your firearm in your pocket and your nose out of other people's business is my advice. Protect yourself and your loved ones if and only if it's in the gravest extreme. Once you shoot/kill someone your life will never be the same.

Remember, 'being allowed' is not the final word. You have to PROVE the circumstances warranted it. You have to PROVE there was disparity of force. You will be arrested and charged and have to hope the DA sees your intervention as mitigated by the current law and moreover, the currently held interpretation of it.

About 30 years ago I came across a gay bashing while leaving a all night pharmacy. 6 guys beating one guy outside of a gay bar. I returned to the counter and told the clerk to call police. I exited, pulled badge and gun, and ID myself, beating stopped, back up arrived, victim REFUSED to press charges. All 6 were let go. I accomplished little, risked my own life, and had some mad co workers who responded to a officer needs assistance for someone who refused to sign a complaint.

I will be a good witness, might even yell out I am calling police and recording, but unless it is absolutely dire I will not get directly involved.

Maverick9 said:

I hope you never take your own advice, my fren, because while you are standing there, firearm drawn, you might not be safe if help arrives unknown to you. Keep your firearm in your pocket and your nose out of other people's business is my advice. Protect yourself and your loved ones if and only if it's in the gravest extreme. Once you shoot/kill someone your life will never be the same.

Remember, 'being allowed' is not the final word. You have to PROVE the circumstances warranted it. You have to PROVE there was disparity of force. You will be arrested and charged and have to hope the DA sees your intervention as mitigated by the current law and moreover, the currently held interpretation of it.

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I just said exactly what you said. I do not care about what you think what is right or wrong. I only care about what law says I can and cannot do. I am allowed to defend a third party; will I? That is something only I can answer when the time comes. Society, both government and the people tend to give a pass for the big three; murder, rape, and theft. The most serious crimes one can commit to another human that creates the largest fallout to victim crimes.

WalkingWolf said:

About 30 years ago I came across a gay bashing while leaving a all night pharmacy. 6 guys beating one guy outside of a gay bar. I returned to the counter and told the clerk to call police. I exited, pulled badge and gun, and ID myself, beating stopped, back up arrived, victim REFUSED to press charges. All 6 were let go. I accomplished little, risked my own life, and had some mad co workers who responded to a officer needs assistance for someone who refused to sign a complaint.

I will be a good witness, might even yell out I am calling police and recording, but unless it is absolutely dire I will not get directly involved.

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All of us who have been an LEO can tell many a story about 3 party defense it isn't always a clear as one would like it to be.

More then one so called victim has turned on the Quote so called rescuing party.

Be very careful about getting involved with 3rd party defense if you do not know personally what is going on.

Cops are 3rd party in most cases too,,,,,, just saying.

Firearms Iinstuctor said:

Ones has to be very careful as a lot of times the situation isn't as it seems.

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This!

I know this thread is getting pretty close to its expiration date, but....

[h=1]“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”[/h][h=1]― Edmund Burke[/h]

Sparky508 said:

I know this thread is getting pretty close to its expiration date, but....

[h=1]“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”[/h][h=1]― Edmund Burke[/h]

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I don't think he had breaking up a bar fight or drunks fighting in mind ...

davidmcbeth said:

Kicking someone when they are down could reasonably be inferred to be attempted murder.

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Seattle Police Officer Shandy Cobane said:

I am going to kick the (expletive) Mexican piss out of you homey

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Explicit intent
Photographic evidence
$150,000 civil rights settlement

"[SPD Officer] Cobane was suspended for 30 days without pay but got to keep his job, and prosecutors declined to file criminal charges against him."

IDK, attempted murder would seem harsh, but several other crimes do seem to fit (i.e. racially motivated assault)