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Thread: Menomonie public library posted

  1. #1
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Menomonie public library posted

    Is Menomonie statute 5-1-3N stricter than state law?

    Section 1. Section 5-1-3N. of the City Code is hereby created as follows:
    N. Possession Of Specified Firearms And Weapons In Public Buildings,
    Business Establishments And Public Areas.
    1. Definitions. The following definitions shall apply in the
    interpretation and the enforcement of this subsection:
    a. “Firearm” means a weapon that acts by force of gunpowder.
    b. “Controlled-access facility” means a facility or area that has
    designated entrances for ingress and egress controlled by a door,
    gate, attendant or other means to limit entry while the facility is
    open and can be locked or secured when closed, or in the
    instance of temporary events of less than three weeks,
    designated entrances may be either secured when closed or the
    controlled-access facility removed at the termination of the
    temporary event.
    c. “Law enforcement” means any person employed by the State of
    Wisconsin or any political subdivision of this state, for the
    purpose of detecting and preventing crime and enforcing laws or
    ordinances and who is authorized to make arrests for violations
    of the laws or ordinances he or she is employed to enforce.
    d. “Special event” means a scheduled public gathering of persons
    on city property to which the public is invited, whether or not an
    admission fee is charged; or at which concessions are to be sold,
    such as food or beverages, including alcoholic beverages; and
    which will reasonably require, based on then-existing city
    policies and procedures, the provision of city support services to
    accommodate the event on public property. A special event is
    open to the public at a predetermined location on public
    property, including, but not limited to, city parks, streets and
    sidewalks. This definition shall not apply to any of the
    following: any march, public assembly, or other activity
    protected by the First Amendment to the United States
    Constitution, city-sponsored events, or funeral processions.
    e. “Weapon” means a handgun, an electronic weapon as defined at
    Section 941.295, Wisconsin statutes, a knife other than a
    switchblade under Section 941.24, Wisconsin statutes, or a billy
    club.
    2. In addition to the provisions of Wisconsin statutes enumerating
    places where the carrying of a weapon or a firearm is prohibited,
    including exceptions thereto, it shall be unlawful for any person
    other than a law enforcement officer or other City officer or official
    designated by the Menomonie Chief of Police to enter the following
    City of Menomonie municipal buildings, facilities or locations
    while carrying a weapon or a firearm:
    a. City Hall;
    b. Menomonie Public Library;
    c. Fire Stations;
    d. Police Station;
    e. Wakanda Waterpark;
    f. Street Department building;
    g. Parks Department buildings;
    h. Leisure Services Center – Shirley Doane Senior Center;
    i. City wells, pump houses, and all related buildings;
    j. Such buildings or facilities as designated by the Menomonie
    Housing Authority;
    k. Wastewater treatment plant, lift stations, and related buildings;
    l. City park bathrooms;
    m. Airport terminal; and
    n. Any and all other municipal buildings or controlled-access
    facilities owned or operated by the City of Menomonie, whether
    now in existence or later constructed or leased, excepting
    unlocked portions of Wilson Park Band Shell and park pavilions
    in Wakanda Park and other similar open-sided structures in
    various locations.
    3. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a law enforcement
    officer to enter any building, facility, or location open to the public
    that is posted as a no firearms or concealed weapons location while
    possessing, carrying, or concealing a firearm or weapon, whether
    with or without a state permit.
    4. Signs meeting the requirements of Section 943.13(2)(bm)1,
    Wisconsin statutes, shall be posted in prominent places near public
    entrances of all buildings, structures or locations that restrict or
    prohibit firearms or concealed weapons.
    5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in
    prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises
    selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
    (a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid
    concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2),
    Wisconsin statutes, and (b) those with such a permit cannot be
    served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section
    941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.
    Licensees that prohibit all firearms and concealed weapons on the
    premise and post signs complying with subsection 4. above shall be
    exempt from this requirement.
    The City Clerk shall have signs meeting these requirements
    produced and available for licensees by November 1, 2011, and for
    new licensees thereafter. Licensees shall post such signs or signs
    substantially similar of comparable size, font, and content.
    6. Any person violating any of the provisions of this subsection shall,
    upon conviction thereof, forfeit not less than $100.00 nor more than
    $500.00, plus court and other costs, for each separate violation, and
    shall further be subject to penalty for trespass under Section 943.13,
    Wisconsin statutes.
    Section 2. Section 1-4-6A. of the City Code is amended to create the following entry:
    5-1-3N, possession of firearms and weapons in specified places:
    Deposit: $200.00
    Section 3. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
    make such changes to the City of Menomonie Employee Handbook to prohibit
    employee use or possession of a firearm or weapon while on duty, except law
    enforcement officers and those authorized by the Chief of Police, while
    making such necessary exceptions and amendments to comply with 2011 Act
    35, Section 175.60(15m), Wisconsin statutes, and such other and future laws
    or binding judicial precedent.
    Section 4. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
    modify any special event application to ask event organizers whether they will
    post the event as firearm and concealed weapons prohibited, or if not, what
    steps the event organizer will take to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of
    those attending the special event.
    Section 5. This ordinance shall be effective on November 1, 2011.
    INTRODUCED 10-17-2011 APPROVED THIS 17th DAY
    FIRST READING waived 10-17-2011 OF October, 2011
    SECOND READING waived 10-17-2011 Randy Knaack
    MAYOR, Randy Knaack
    PASSED 10-17-2011
    PUBLISHED 10-23-2011 SUBMITTED BY:
    ATTEST JoAnn L. Kadinger Sandy White
    CITY CLERK, JoAnn L. Kadinger ALDERPERSON

  2. #2
    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Is Menomonie statute 5-1-3N stricter than state law?
    2. In addition to the provisions of Wisconsin statutes enumerating
    places where the carrying of a weapon or a firearm is prohibited,
    including exceptions thereto, it shall be unlawful for any person
    other than a law enforcement officer or other City officer or official
    designated by the Menomonie Chief of Police to enter the following
    City of Menomonie municipal buildings, facilities or locations
    while carrying a weapon or a firearm:
    a. City Hall;
    b. Menomonie Public Library;
    c. Fire Stations;
    d. Police Station;
    e. Wakanda Waterpark;
    f. Street Department building;
    g. Parks Department buildings;
    h. Leisure Services Center – Shirley Doane Senior Center;
    i. City wells, pump houses, and all related buildings;
    j. Such buildings or facilities as designated by the Menomonie
    Housing Authority;
    k. Wastewater treatment plant, lift stations, and related buildings;
    l. City park bathrooms;
    m. Airport terminal; and
    n. Any and all other municipal buildings or controlled-access
    facilities owned or operated by the City of Menomonie, whether
    now in existence or later constructed or leased, excepting
    unlocked portions of Wilson Park Band Shell and park pavilions
    in Wakanda Park and other similar open-sided structures in
    various locations.
    3. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a law enforcement
    officer to enter any building, facility, or location open to the public
    that is posted as a no firearms or concealed weapons location while
    possessing, carrying, or concealing a firearm or weapon, whether
    with or without a state permit.
    4. Signs meeting the requirements of Section 943.13(2)(bm)1,
    Wisconsin statutes, shall be posted in prominent places near public
    entrances of all buildings, structures or locations that restrict or
    prohibit firearms or concealed weapons.
    5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in
    prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises
    selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
    (a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid
    concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2),
    Wisconsin statutes,
    and (b) those with such a permit cannot be
    served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section
    941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.
    Licensees that prohibit all firearms and concealed weapons on the
    premise and post signs complying with subsection 4. above shall be
    exempt from this requirement.
    The City Clerk shall have signs meeting these requirements
    produced and available for licensees by November 1, 2011, and for
    new licensees thereafter. Licensees shall post such signs or signs
    substantially similar of comparable size, font, and content.
    6. Any person violating any of the provisions of this subsection shall,
    upon conviction thereof, forfeit not less than $100.00 nor more than
    $500.00, plus court and other costs, for each separate violation, and
    shall further be subject to penalty for trespass under Section 943.13,
    Wisconsin statutes.
    Section 2. Section 1-4-6A. of the City Code is amended to create the following entry:
    5-1-3N, possession of firearms and weapons in specified places:
    Deposit: $200.00
    Section 3. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
    make such changes to the City of Menomonie Employee Handbook to prohibit
    employee use or possession of a firearm or weapon while on duty, except law
    enforcement officers and those authorized by the Chief of Police, while
    making such necessary exceptions and amendments to comply with 2011 Act
    35, Section 175.60(15m), Wisconsin statutes, and such other and future laws
    or binding judicial precedent.
    Section 4. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
    modify any special event application to ask event organizers whether they will
    post the event as firearm and concealed weapons prohibited, or if not, what
    steps the event organizer will take to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of
    those attending the special event.
    Section 5. This ordinance shall be effective on November 1, 2011.
    INTRODUCED 10-17-2011 APPROVED THIS 17th DAY
    FIRST READING waived 10-17-2011 OF October, 2011
    SECOND READING waived 10-17-2011 Randy Knaack
    MAYOR, Randy Knaack
    PASSED 10-17-2011
    PUBLISHED 10-23-2011 SUBMITTED BY:
    ATTEST JoAnn L. Kadinger Sandy White
    CITY CLERK, JoAnn L. Kadinger ALDERPERSON

    That is yes. A licence is not required under Wisconsin law to open carry.


    Additionally I would like to see the specific statute giving government buildings permission to defy state preemption as all La Crosse Libraries are posted as well as the police station and other public buildings. Private businesses can do what they please of course but don't publicly funded buildings have to comply with state law?
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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  3. #3
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    How do we go about changing this?

  4. #4
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Wow. A bunch of scared idjuts are about to be invaded by a massive criminal presence if this ever gets out. They've essentially disarmed the entire populace and even those on the fence as to the right to personal self-defense should move.

    It's 'laws' like these that create things like 'Copland' and 'Detroit'.

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    I thought it was illegal to mislead one into breaking the law??

    I'm really missing something here. [bold is mine]. So there is this section that says they MUST post a sign, in compliance for places that serve alcohol, that does advise of an exception for a permit holder:

    5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in
    prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises
    selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
    (a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid
    concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2),
    Wisconsin statutes,
    and (b) those with such a permit cannot be
    served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section
    941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.

    But there is this in the statute, that says there is no exception for a permit holder:

    3. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a law enforcement
    officer to enter any building, facility, or location open to the public
    that is posted as a no firearms or concealed weapons location while
    possessing, carrying, or concealing a firearm or weapon,
    whether
    with or without a state permit.

    Sooooo, If I read this correctly; They want to post that it is OK if you have a permit and bust you for violating what the sign says is permissible. OR are they saying that the posted public buildings are a NO (to carry a firearm) except if they serve alcohol.

    To me this looks like an attempt to do something the law does not permit by legal doublespeak that really doesn't hold up (unless you get the right judge).

    Remember, I AM an armchair lawyer with no law degree, license to practice or experience. So this is worth about 2 cents.

    Rob

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    [ ... ] Additionally I would like to see the specific statute giving government ... permission to defy state preemption [ ... ]
    In general, laws prohibit rather than permit. Unfortunately in this case of preemption the statute §66.0409 has no teeth and no office commissioned to enforce it.

    Political subdivisions of the State of Wisconsin enjoy home rule by the Wisconsin Constitution, Article XI Corporations, "Municipal home rule; debt limit; tax to pay debt. Section 3. [As amended Nov. 1874, Nov. 1912, Nov. 1924, Nov. 1932, April 1951, April 1955, Nov. 1960, April 1961, April 1963, April 1966 and April 1981]
    (1)  Cities and villages organized pursuant to state law may determine their local affairs and government, subject only to this constitution and to such enactments of the legislature of statewide concern as with uniformity shall affect every city or every village. The method of such determination shall be prescribed by the legislature. [ ... ]"

    Here the legislature made the §66.0409 determination without a prescribed enforcement. About home rule there is vast case law, hundreds of cases.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  7. #7
    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    In general, laws prohibit rather than permit. Unfortunately in this case of preemption the statute §66.0409 has no teeth and no office commissioned to enforce it.

    Political subdivisions of the State of Wisconsin enjoy home rule by the Wisconsin Constitution, Article XI Corporations, "Municipal home rule; debt limit; tax to pay debt. Section 3. [As amended Nov. 1874, Nov. 1912, Nov. 1924, Nov. 1932, April 1951, April 1955, Nov. 1960, April 1961, April 1963, April 1966 and April 1981]
    (1)  Cities and villages organized pursuant to state law may determine their local affairs and government, subject only to this constitution and to such enactments of the legislature of statewide concern as with uniformity shall affect every city or every village. The method of such determination shall be prescribed by the legislature. [ ... ]"

    Here the legislature made the §66.0409 determination without a prescribed enforcement. About home rule there is vast case law, hundreds of cases.

    so the question is 1) in the case of public buildings do the signs have the force of law considering the place cannot prohibit (if indeed they can't) firearms in the first place and 2) can you be trespassed from a building thats publicly owned?
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Is Menomonie statute 5-1-3N stricter than state law?

    Section 1. Section 5-1-3N. of the City Code is hereby created as follows:
    N. Possession Of Specified Firearms And Weapons In Public Buildings,
    Business Establishments And Public Areas.
    1. Definitions. The following definitions shall apply in the
    interpretation and the enforcement of this subsection:
    a. “Firearm” means a weapon that acts by force of gunpowder.
    b. “Controlled-access facility” means a facility or area that has
    designated entrances for ingress and egress controlled by a door,
    gate, attendant or other means to limit entry while the facility is
    open and can be locked or secured when closed, or in the
    instance of temporary events of less than three weeks,
    designated entrances may be either secured when closed or the
    controlled-access facility removed at the termination of the
    temporary event.
    c. “Law enforcement” means any person employed by the State of
    Wisconsin or any political subdivision of this state, for the
    purpose of detecting and preventing crime and enforcing laws or
    ordinances and who is authorized to make arrests for violations
    of the laws or ordinances he or she is employed to enforce.
    d. “Special event” means a scheduled public gathering of persons
    on city property to which the public is invited, whether or not an
    admission fee is charged; or at which concessions are to be sold,
    such as food or beverages, including alcoholic beverages; and
    which will reasonably require, based on then-existing city
    policies and procedures, the provision of city support services to
    accommodate the event on public property. A special event is
    open to the public at a predetermined location on public
    property, including, but not limited to, city parks, streets and
    sidewalks. This definition shall not apply to any of the
    following: any march, public assembly, or other activity
    protected by the First Amendment to the United States
    Constitution, city-sponsored events, or funeral processions.
    e. “Weapon” means a handgun, an electronic weapon as defined at
    Section 941.295, Wisconsin statutes, a knife other than a
    switchblade under Section 941.24, Wisconsin statutes, or a billy
    club.
    2. In addition to the provisions of Wisconsin statutes enumerating
    places where the carrying of a weapon or a firearm is prohibited,
    including exceptions thereto, it shall be unlawful for any person
    other than a law enforcement officer or other City officer or official
    designated by the Menomonie Chief of Police to enter the following
    City of Menomonie municipal buildings, facilities or locations
    while carrying a weapon or a firearm:
    a. City Hall;
    b. Menomonie Public Library;
    c. Fire Stations;
    d. Police Station;
    e. Wakanda Waterpark;
    f. Street Department building;
    g. Parks Department buildings;
    h. Leisure Services Center – Shirley Doane Senior Center;
    i. City wells, pump houses, and all related buildings;
    j. Such buildings or facilities as designated by the Menomonie
    Housing Authority;
    k. Wastewater treatment plant, lift stations, and related buildings;
    l. City park bathrooms;
    m. Airport terminal; and
    n. Any and all other municipal buildings or controlled-access
    facilities owned or operated by the City of Menomonie, whether
    now in existence or later constructed or leased, excepting
    unlocked portions of Wilson Park Band Shell and park pavilions
    in Wakanda Park and other similar open-sided structures in
    various locations.
    3. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a law enforcement
    officer to enter any building, facility, or location open to the public
    that is posted as a no firearms or concealed weapons location while
    possessing, carrying, or concealing a firearm or weapon, whether
    with or without a state permit.
    4. Signs meeting the requirements of Section 943.13(2)(bm)1,
    Wisconsin statutes, shall be posted in prominent places near public
    entrances of all buildings, structures or locations that restrict or
    prohibit firearms or concealed weapons.
    5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in
    prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises
    selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
    (a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid
    concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2),
    Wisconsin statutes, and (b) those with such a permit cannot be
    served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section
    941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.
    Licensees that prohibit all firearms and concealed weapons on the
    premise and post signs complying with subsection 4. above shall be
    exempt from this requirement.
    The City Clerk shall have signs meeting these requirements
    produced and available for licensees by November 1, 2011, and for
    new licensees thereafter. Licensees shall post such signs or signs
    substantially similar of comparable size, font, and content.
    6. Any person violating any of the provisions of this subsection shall,
    upon conviction thereof, forfeit not less than $100.00 nor more than
    $500.00, plus court and other costs, for each separate violation, and
    shall further be subject to penalty for trespass under Section 943.13,
    Wisconsin statutes.
    Section 2. Section 1-4-6A. of the City Code is amended to create the following entry:
    5-1-3N, possession of firearms and weapons in specified places:
    Deposit: $200.00
    Section 3. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
    make such changes to the City of Menomonie Employee Handbook to prohibit
    employee use or possession of a firearm or weapon while on duty, except law
    enforcement officers and those authorized by the Chief of Police, while
    making such necessary exceptions and amendments to comply with 2011 Act
    35, Section 175.60(15m), Wisconsin statutes, and such other and future laws
    or binding judicial precedent.
    Section 4. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
    modify any special event application to ask event organizers whether they will
    post the event as firearm and concealed weapons prohibited, or if not, what
    steps the event organizer will take to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of
    those attending the special event.
    Section 5. This ordinance shall be effective on November 1, 2011.
    INTRODUCED 10-17-2011 APPROVED THIS 17th DAY
    FIRST READING waived 10-17-2011 OF October, 2011
    SECOND READING waived 10-17-2011 Randy Knaack
    MAYOR, Randy Knaack
    PASSED 10-17-2011
    PUBLISHED 10-23-2011 SUBMITTED BY:
    ATTEST JoAnn L. Kadinger Sandy White
    CITY CLERK, JoAnn L. Kadinger ALDERPERSON
    Call the Sheriff and get his help. Some restrictions like in the city parks may be more strict than state. The door is too wide and they will abuse it by calling all events special events etc... Call your rep/senator. If your senator is Kathleen Vinehout or Erpenbach, forget it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    [ ... ] they will abuse it by calling all events special events [ ... ]
    943.13  Trespass to land.
    §943.13(1e)(h) "Special event" means an event that is open to the public, is for a duration of not more than 3 weeks, and either has designated entrances to and from the event that are locked when the event is closed or requires an admission.
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/doc...s/943.13(1e)(h)
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  10. #10
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Call the Sheriff and get his help. Some restrictions like in the city parks may be more strict than state. The door is too wide and they will abuse it by calling all events special events etc... Call your rep/senator. If your senator is Kathleen Vinehout or Erpenbach, forget it.

    I'm not from Dunn Co. Where I'm staying until my house is ready is actually right on the Dunn and St Croix border. Its the Twilight Zone up in here

  11. #11
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag
    Is Menomonie statute 5-1-3N stricter than state law?
    Parts of it are.

    (c) "Law enforcement” means any person employed by the State of Wisconsin or any political subdivision of this state, for the purpose of detecting and preventing crime and enforcing laws or ordinances and who is authorized to make arrests for violations of the laws or ordinances he or she is employed to enforce.
    I believe the State defines it differently; whether or not that comes under the firearm preemption statute is another question entirely.
    Notice that it doesn't say "in the course of their official duties"? So this is giving special privileges to some people based on their employer, even when they're not at work. Unconstitutional.

    d. “Special event” means a scheduled public gathering of persons on city property to which the public is invited, whether or not an admission fee is charged;
    or at which concessions are to be sold, such as food or beverages, including alcoholic beverages;
    and which will reasonably require, based on then-existing city policies and procedures, the provision of city support services to accommodate the event on public property.
    A special event is open to the public at a predetermined location on public property, including, but not limited to, city parks, streets and sidewalks.
    This definition shall not apply to any of the following: any march, public assembly, or other activity protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, city-sponsored events, or funeral processions.
    This is not the State's definition of "special event", and I doubt they could enforce theirs, since it's more restrictive and does apply to firearms.

    5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
    (a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2), Wisconsin statutes,
    and (b) those with such a permit cannot be served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section 941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.
    Definitely not enforceable, since (a) is more strict than state law.
    (b) is actually correct, wonder of wonders.

    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian
    I would like to see the specific statute giving government buildings permission to defy state preemption as all La Crosse Libraries are posted as well as the police station and other public buildings. Private businesses can do what they please of course but don't publicly funded buildings have to comply with state law?
    They are complying with state law if they've put up "keep out, evil gun owner" signs.
    Posting them is part of the trespass statute.

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