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Menomonie public library posted

wimwag

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
1,049
Location
Doug
Is Menomonie statute 5-1-3N stricter than state law?

Section 1. Section 5-1-3N. of the City Code is hereby created as follows:
N. Possession Of Specified Firearms And Weapons In Public Buildings,
Business Establishments And Public Areas.
1. Definitions. The following definitions shall apply in the
interpretation and the enforcement of this subsection:
a. “Firearm” means a weapon that acts by force of gunpowder.
b. “Controlled-access facility” means a facility or area that has
designated entrances for ingress and egress controlled by a door,
gate, attendant or other means to limit entry while the facility is
open and can be locked or secured when closed, or in the
instance of temporary events of less than three weeks,
designated entrances may be either secured when closed or the
controlled-access facility removed at the termination of the
temporary event.
c. “Law enforcement” means any person employed by the State of
Wisconsin or any political subdivision of this state, for the
purpose of detecting and preventing crime and enforcing laws or
ordinances and who is authorized to make arrests for violations
of the laws or ordinances he or she is employed to enforce.
d. “Special event” means a scheduled public gathering of persons
on city property to which the public is invited, whether or not an
admission fee is charged; or at which concessions are to be sold,
such as food or beverages, including alcoholic beverages; and
which will reasonably require, based on then-existing city
policies and procedures, the provision of city support services to
accommodate the event on public property. A special event is
open to the public at a predetermined location on public
property, including, but not limited to, city parks, streets and
sidewalks. This definition shall not apply to any of the
following: any march, public assembly, or other activity
protected by the First Amendment to the United States
Constitution, city-sponsored events, or funeral processions.
e. “Weapon” means a handgun, an electronic weapon as defined at
Section 941.295, Wisconsin statutes, a knife other than a
switchblade under Section 941.24, Wisconsin statutes, or a billy
club.
2. In addition to the provisions of Wisconsin statutes enumerating
places where the carrying of a weapon or a firearm is prohibited,
including exceptions thereto, it shall be unlawful for any person
other than a law enforcement officer or other City officer or official
designated by the Menomonie Chief of Police to enter the following
City of Menomonie municipal buildings, facilities or locations
while carrying a weapon or a firearm:
a. City Hall;
b. Menomonie Public Library;
c. Fire Stations;
d. Police Station;
e. Wakanda Waterpark;
f. Street Department building;
g. Parks Department buildings;
h. Leisure Services Center – Shirley Doane Senior Center;
i. City wells, pump houses, and all related buildings;
j. Such buildings or facilities as designated by the Menomonie
Housing Authority;
k. Wastewater treatment plant, lift stations, and related buildings;
l. City park bathrooms;
m. Airport terminal; and
n. Any and all other municipal buildings or controlled-access
facilities owned or operated by the City of Menomonie, whether
now in existence or later constructed or leased, excepting
unlocked portions of Wilson Park Band Shell and park pavilions
in Wakanda Park and other similar open-sided structures in
various locations.
3. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a law enforcement
officer to enter any building, facility, or location open to the public
that is posted as a no firearms or concealed weapons location while
possessing, carrying, or concealing a firearm or weapon, whether
with or without a state permit.
4. Signs meeting the requirements of Section 943.13(2)(bm)1,
Wisconsin statutes, shall be posted in prominent places near public
entrances of all buildings, structures or locations that restrict or
prohibit firearms or concealed weapons.
5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in
prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises
selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
(a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid
concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2),
Wisconsin statutes, and (b) those with such a permit cannot be
served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section
941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.
Licensees that prohibit all firearms and concealed weapons on the
premise and post signs complying with subsection 4. above shall be
exempt from this requirement.
The City Clerk shall have signs meeting these requirements
produced and available for licensees by November 1, 2011, and for
new licensees thereafter. Licensees shall post such signs or signs
substantially similar of comparable size, font, and content.
6. Any person violating any of the provisions of this subsection shall,
upon conviction thereof, forfeit not less than $100.00 nor more than
$500.00, plus court and other costs, for each separate violation, and
shall further be subject to penalty for trespass under Section 943.13,
Wisconsin statutes.
Section 2. Section 1-4-6A. of the City Code is amended to create the following entry:
5-1-3N, possession of firearms and weapons in specified places:
Deposit: $200.00
Section 3. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
make such changes to the City of Menomonie Employee Handbook to prohibit
employee use or possession of a firearm or weapon while on duty, except law
enforcement officers and those authorized by the Chief of Police, while
making such necessary exceptions and amendments to comply with 2011 Act
35, Section 175.60(15m), Wisconsin statutes, and such other and future laws
or binding judicial precedent.
Section 4. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
modify any special event application to ask event organizers whether they will
post the event as firearm and concealed weapons prohibited, or if not, what
steps the event organizer will take to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of
those attending the special event.
Section 5. This ordinance shall be effective on November 1, 2011.
INTRODUCED 10-17-2011 APPROVED THIS 17th DAY
FIRST READING waived 10-17-2011 OF October, 2011
SECOND READING waived 10-17-2011 Randy Knaack
MAYOR, Randy Knaack
PASSED 10-17-2011
PUBLISHED 10-23-2011 SUBMITTED BY:
ATTEST JoAnn L. Kadinger Sandy White
CITY CLERK, JoAnn L. Kadinger ALDERPERSON
 

rightwinglibertarian

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
827
Location
Seattle WA
Is Menomonie statute 5-1-3N stricter than state law?
2. In addition to the provisions of Wisconsin statutes enumerating
places where the carrying of a weapon or a firearm is prohibited,
including exceptions thereto, it shall be unlawful for any person
other than a law enforcement officer or other City officer or official
designated by the Menomonie Chief of Police to enter the following
City of Menomonie municipal buildings, facilities or locations
while carrying a weapon or a firearm:
a. City Hall;
b. Menomonie Public Library;
c. Fire Stations;
d. Police Station;
e. Wakanda Waterpark;
f. Street Department building;
g. Parks Department buildings;
h. Leisure Services Center – Shirley Doane Senior Center;
i. City wells, pump houses, and all related buildings;
j. Such buildings or facilities as designated by the Menomonie
Housing Authority;
k. Wastewater treatment plant, lift stations, and related buildings;
l. City park bathrooms;
m. Airport terminal; and
n. Any and all other municipal buildings or controlled-access
facilities owned or operated by the City of Menomonie, whether
now in existence or later constructed or leased, excepting
unlocked portions of Wilson Park Band Shell and park pavilions
in Wakanda Park and other similar open-sided structures in
various locations.
3. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a law enforcement
officer to enter any building, facility, or location open to the public
that is posted as a no firearms or concealed weapons location while
possessing, carrying, or concealing a firearm or weapon, whether
with or without a state permit.
4. Signs meeting the requirements of Section 943.13(2)(bm)1,
Wisconsin statutes, shall be posted in prominent places near public
entrances of all buildings, structures or locations that restrict or
prohibit firearms or concealed weapons.
5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in
prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises
selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
(a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid
concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2),
Wisconsin statutes,
and (b) those with such a permit cannot be
served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section
941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.
Licensees that prohibit all firearms and concealed weapons on the
premise and post signs complying with subsection 4. above shall be
exempt from this requirement.
The City Clerk shall have signs meeting these requirements
produced and available for licensees by November 1, 2011, and for
new licensees thereafter. Licensees shall post such signs or signs
substantially similar of comparable size, font, and content.
6. Any person violating any of the provisions of this subsection shall,
upon conviction thereof, forfeit not less than $100.00 nor more than
$500.00, plus court and other costs, for each separate violation, and
shall further be subject to penalty for trespass under Section 943.13,
Wisconsin statutes.
Section 2. Section 1-4-6A. of the City Code is amended to create the following entry:
5-1-3N, possession of firearms and weapons in specified places:
Deposit: $200.00
Section 3. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
make such changes to the City of Menomonie Employee Handbook to prohibit
employee use or possession of a firearm or weapon while on duty, except law
enforcement officers and those authorized by the Chief of Police, while
making such necessary exceptions and amendments to comply with 2011 Act
35, Section 175.60(15m), Wisconsin statutes, and such other and future laws
or binding judicial precedent.
Section 4. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
modify any special event application to ask event organizers whether they will
post the event as firearm and concealed weapons prohibited, or if not, what
steps the event organizer will take to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of
those attending the special event.
Section 5. This ordinance shall be effective on November 1, 2011.
INTRODUCED 10-17-2011 APPROVED THIS 17th DAY
FIRST READING waived 10-17-2011 OF October, 2011
SECOND READING waived 10-17-2011 Randy Knaack
MAYOR, Randy Knaack
PASSED 10-17-2011
PUBLISHED 10-23-2011 SUBMITTED BY:
ATTEST JoAnn L. Kadinger Sandy White
CITY CLERK, JoAnn L. Kadinger ALDERPERSON


That is yes. A licence is not required under Wisconsin law to open carry.


Additionally I would like to see the specific statute giving government buildings permission to defy state preemption as all La Crosse Libraries are posted as well as the police station and other public buildings. Private businesses can do what they please of course but don't publicly funded buildings have to comply with state law?
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
Wow. A bunch of scared idjuts are about to be invaded by a massive criminal presence if this ever gets out. They've essentially disarmed the entire populace and even those on the fence as to the right to personal self-defense should move.

It's 'laws' like these that create things like 'Copland' and 'Detroit'.
 

Helorob

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
34
Location
S.E. WI
I thought it was illegal to mislead one into breaking the law??

I'm really missing something here. [bold is mine]. So there is this section that says they MUST post a sign, in compliance for places that serve alcohol, that does advise of an exception for a permit holder:

5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in
prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises
selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
(a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid
concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2),
Wisconsin statutes,
and (b) those with such a permit cannot be
served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section
941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.

But there is this in the statute, that says there is no exception for a permit holder:

3. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a law enforcement
officer to enter any building, facility, or location open to the public
that is posted as a no firearms or concealed weapons location while
possessing, carrying, or concealing a firearm or weapon,
whether
with or without a state permit.

Sooooo, If I read this correctly; They want to post that it is OK if you have a permit and bust you for violating what the sign says is permissible:shocker:. OR are they saying that the posted public buildings are a NO (to carry a firearm) except if they serve alcohol.

To me this looks like an attempt to do something the law does not permit by legal doublespeak that really doesn't hold up (unless you get the right judge).

Remember, I AM an armchair lawyer with no law degree, license to practice or experience. So this is worth about 2 cents.

Rob
 

rightwinglibertarian

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
827
Location
Seattle WA
In general, laws prohibit rather than permit. Unfortunately in this case of preemption the statute §66.0409 has no teeth and no office commissioned to enforce it.

Political subdivisions of the State of Wisconsin enjoy home rule by the Wisconsin Constitution, Article XI Corporations, "Municipal home rule; debt limit; tax to pay debt. Section 3. [As amended Nov. 1874, Nov. 1912, Nov. 1924, Nov. 1932, April 1951, April 1955, Nov. 1960, April 1961, April 1963, April 1966 and April 1981]
(1)  Cities and villages organized pursuant to state law may determine their local affairs and government, subject only to this constitution and to such enactments of the legislature of statewide concern as with uniformity shall affect every city or every village. The method of such determination shall be prescribed by the legislature. [ ... ]"

Here the legislature made the §66.0409 determination without a prescribed enforcement. About home rule there is vast case law, hundreds of cases.


so the question is 1) in the case of public buildings do the signs have the force of law considering the place cannot prohibit (if indeed they can't) firearms in the first place and 2) can you be trespassed from a building thats publicly owned?
 

Law abider

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
1,164
Location
Ellsworth Wisconsin
Is Menomonie statute 5-1-3N stricter than state law?

Section 1. Section 5-1-3N. of the City Code is hereby created as follows:
N. Possession Of Specified Firearms And Weapons In Public Buildings,
Business Establishments And Public Areas.
1. Definitions. The following definitions shall apply in the
interpretation and the enforcement of this subsection:
a. “Firearm” means a weapon that acts by force of gunpowder.
b. “Controlled-access facility” means a facility or area that has
designated entrances for ingress and egress controlled by a door,
gate, attendant or other means to limit entry while the facility is
open and can be locked or secured when closed, or in the
instance of temporary events of less than three weeks,
designated entrances may be either secured when closed or the
controlled-access facility removed at the termination of the
temporary event.
c. “Law enforcement” means any person employed by the State of
Wisconsin or any political subdivision of this state, for the
purpose of detecting and preventing crime and enforcing laws or
ordinances and who is authorized to make arrests for violations
of the laws or ordinances he or she is employed to enforce.
d. “Special event” means a scheduled public gathering of persons
on city property to which the public is invited, whether or not an
admission fee is charged; or at which concessions are to be sold,
such as food or beverages, including alcoholic beverages; and
which will reasonably require, based on then-existing city
policies and procedures, the provision of city support services to
accommodate the event on public property. A special event is
open to the public at a predetermined location on public
property, including, but not limited to, city parks, streets and
sidewalks. This definition shall not apply to any of the
following: any march, public assembly, or other activity
protected by the First Amendment to the United States
Constitution, city-sponsored events, or funeral processions.
e. “Weapon” means a handgun, an electronic weapon as defined at
Section 941.295, Wisconsin statutes, a knife other than a
switchblade under Section 941.24, Wisconsin statutes, or a billy
club.
2. In addition to the provisions of Wisconsin statutes enumerating
places where the carrying of a weapon or a firearm is prohibited,
including exceptions thereto, it shall be unlawful for any person
other than a law enforcement officer or other City officer or official
designated by the Menomonie Chief of Police to enter the following
City of Menomonie municipal buildings, facilities or locations
while carrying a weapon or a firearm:
a. City Hall;
b. Menomonie Public Library;
c. Fire Stations;
d. Police Station;
e. Wakanda Waterpark;
f. Street Department building;
g. Parks Department buildings;
h. Leisure Services Center – Shirley Doane Senior Center;
i. City wells, pump houses, and all related buildings;
j. Such buildings or facilities as designated by the Menomonie
Housing Authority;
k. Wastewater treatment plant, lift stations, and related buildings;
l. City park bathrooms;
m. Airport terminal; and
n. Any and all other municipal buildings or controlled-access
facilities owned or operated by the City of Menomonie, whether
now in existence or later constructed or leased, excepting
unlocked portions of Wilson Park Band Shell and park pavilions
in Wakanda Park and other similar open-sided structures in
various locations.
3. It shall be unlawful for any person other than a law enforcement
officer to enter any building, facility, or location open to the public
that is posted as a no firearms or concealed weapons location while
possessing, carrying, or concealing a firearm or weapon, whether
with or without a state permit.
4. Signs meeting the requirements of Section 943.13(2)(bm)1,
Wisconsin statutes, shall be posted in prominent places near public
entrances of all buildings, structures or locations that restrict or
prohibit firearms or concealed weapons.
5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in
prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises
selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
(a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid
concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2),
Wisconsin statutes, and (b) those with such a permit cannot be
served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section
941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.
Licensees that prohibit all firearms and concealed weapons on the
premise and post signs complying with subsection 4. above shall be
exempt from this requirement.
The City Clerk shall have signs meeting these requirements
produced and available for licensees by November 1, 2011, and for
new licensees thereafter. Licensees shall post such signs or signs
substantially similar of comparable size, font, and content.
6. Any person violating any of the provisions of this subsection shall,
upon conviction thereof, forfeit not less than $100.00 nor more than
$500.00, plus court and other costs, for each separate violation, and
shall further be subject to penalty for trespass under Section 943.13,
Wisconsin statutes.
Section 2. Section 1-4-6A. of the City Code is amended to create the following entry:
5-1-3N, possession of firearms and weapons in specified places:
Deposit: $200.00
Section 3. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
make such changes to the City of Menomonie Employee Handbook to prohibit
employee use or possession of a firearm or weapon while on duty, except law
enforcement officers and those authorized by the Chief of Police, while
making such necessary exceptions and amendments to comply with 2011 Act
35, Section 175.60(15m), Wisconsin statutes, and such other and future laws
or binding judicial precedent.
Section 4. (Non-codified provision) The City Administrator is authorized and directed to
modify any special event application to ask event organizers whether they will
post the event as firearm and concealed weapons prohibited, or if not, what
steps the event organizer will take to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of
those attending the special event.
Section 5. This ordinance shall be effective on November 1, 2011.
INTRODUCED 10-17-2011 APPROVED THIS 17th DAY
FIRST READING waived 10-17-2011 OF October, 2011
SECOND READING waived 10-17-2011 Randy Knaack
MAYOR, Randy Knaack
PASSED 10-17-2011
PUBLISHED 10-23-2011 SUBMITTED BY:
ATTEST JoAnn L. Kadinger Sandy White
CITY CLERK, JoAnn L. Kadinger ALDERPERSON

Call the Sheriff and get his help. Some restrictions like in the city parks may be more strict than state. The door is too wide and they will abuse it by calling all events special events etc... Call your rep/senator. If your senator is Kathleen Vinehout or Erpenbach, forget it.
 

wimwag

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
1,049
Location
Doug
Call the Sheriff and get his help. Some restrictions like in the city parks may be more strict than state. The door is too wide and they will abuse it by calling all events special events etc... Call your rep/senator. If your senator is Kathleen Vinehout or Erpenbach, forget it.


I'm not from Dunn Co. Where I'm staying until my house is ready is actually right on the Dunn and St Croix border. Its the Twilight Zone up in here
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
wimwag said:
Is Menomonie statute 5-1-3N stricter than state law?
Parts of it are.

(c) "Law enforcement” means any person employed by the State of Wisconsin or any political subdivision of this state, for the purpose of detecting and preventing crime and enforcing laws or ordinances and who is authorized to make arrests for violations of the laws or ordinances he or she is employed to enforce.
I believe the State defines it differently; whether or not that comes under the firearm preemption statute is another question entirely.
Notice that it doesn't say "in the course of their official duties"? So this is giving special privileges to some people based on their employer, even when they're not at work. Unconstitutional.

d. “Special event” means a scheduled public gathering of persons on city property to which the public is invited, whether or not an admission fee is charged;
or at which concessions are to be sold, such as food or beverages, including alcoholic beverages;
and which will reasonably require, based on then-existing city policies and procedures, the provision of city support services to accommodate the event on public property.
A special event is open to the public at a predetermined location on public property, including, but not limited to, city parks, streets and sidewalks.
This definition shall not apply to any of the following: any march, public assembly, or other activity protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, city-sponsored events, or funeral processions.
This is not the State's definition of "special event", and I doubt they could enforce theirs, since it's more restrictive and does apply to firearms.

5. Signs of at least 5 inches by 7 inches in size shall be posted in prominent places near public entrances to all licensed premises selling alcohol for on-premise consumption to advise patrons that
(a) firearms are prohibited on such premises except with a valid concealed weapons permit pursuant to Section 941.237(2), Wisconsin statutes,
and (b) those with such a permit cannot be served alcohol if carrying a concealed weapon pursuant to Section 941.237(3)(cx), Wisconsin statutes.
Definitely not enforceable, since (a) is more strict than state law.
(b) is actually correct, wonder of wonders.

rightwinglibertarian said:
I would like to see the specific statute giving government buildings permission to defy state preemption as all La Crosse Libraries are posted as well as the police station and other public buildings. Private businesses can do what they please of course but don't publicly funded buildings have to comply with state law?
They are complying with state law if they've put up "keep out, evil gun owner" signs.
Posting them is part of the trespass statute.
 
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