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Thread: No firearms sign apply to Leo private business?

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    Regular Member J-SiN's Avatar
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    No firearms sign apply to Leo private business?

    More of a law question. The other night at local bar
    That I despise because of it's no firearms sign
    I notice 3 men plain clothes open carry walk in
    Within a short time I realized it was ALE

    Now without making some huge debate I pondered
    The laws and legality here
    DOES it or DOES it not apply to LEO'S being a private business
    What DOES the law say or not say on the matter?

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    INAL...

    my understanding in eastern NC is LEs, when off duty or outside their jurisdiction, are just like JQP and subject to the same firearm statues as JQP. that stated, not sure how other officers would react to their own violating firearm statutes, if at all?

    now, in my neck of the woods, i have been told by several folk, who should know, that the Goldsboro chief has instituted written policy stating his officers are on duty 24/7, so not sure the implications of that kind of policy. I am unable to verify if the 'new' replacement, up for election, sheriff has such a policy.

    there is in NC statutes specific judicial and boundary criteria outlined in the statutes which has been discussed earlier this year.

    sorry for being vague but not sure with the brotherhood there is anybody who would enforce those statutes against a fellow officer.

    ipse
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    Contact the district or states attorney's office ... I agree that cops won't do anything but the DA/SA's are the head law enforcement organization.

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    Unless said LEO is "on the clock" (aka on duty), he/she is no different than Joe Citizen under the law. At least, that is how it is SUPPOSED to work. As mentioned above, your not going to see other LE's push the issue with their co-workers.

    Regarding the Goldsboro chief, that written policy is going to cost - since legally it would require him to pay the officer for 24 hours of work every day IF the officers are hourly employees. It also means any injury sustained (even from a fall out of bed or an injury while passionately engaged) is an injury on duty.....

    Given that it is a business that caters to the public, I would stipulate that any firearms ban is unconstitutional, but that is another argument.

    Now - if your dealing with true private property, like your home or other non-business property (land, etc) then yes, a firearms ban SHOULD apply to any non-duty officer just like it does to any other citizen.

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    LEO are excepted from the prohibition of guns carried in establishments serving alcohol.

    http://www.ncsheriffs.org/images/200...Laws%20Pub.pdf

    Includes the notation N.C Gen. Stat. § 14-269.3 at "page 23" (file page 25) in a document dated 2011

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LEO are excepted from the prohibition of guns carried in establishments serving alcohol.

    http://www.ncsheriffs.org/images/200...Laws%20Pub.pdf

    Includes the notation N.C Gen. Stat. § 14-269.3 at "page 23" (file page 25) in a document dated 2011

    .
    well considered you are citing the NC AG "helpful guide" (not statute) source that is over 3 years old, which as been replaced a minimum of three times that i know of...nice job.

    please search to your hearts content for the message you are trying to convey.

    however, there is NC statues regarding LE.

    § 160A-285. Powers and duties of policemen.
    As a peace officer, a policeman shall have within the corporate limits of the city all of the powers invested in law-enforcement officers by statute or common law. He shall also have power to serve all civil and criminal process that may be directed to him by any officer of the General Court of Justice and may enforce the ordinances and regulations of the city as the council may direct. (Code, s. 3811; Rev., s. 2927; C.S., s. 2642; 1971, c. 698, s. 1; c. 896, s. 4.)

    § 160A-286. Extraterritorial jurisdiction of policemen.
    In addition to their authority within the corporate limits, city policemen shall have all the powers invested in law-enforcement officers by statute or common law within one mile of the corporate limits of the city, and on all property owned by or leased to the city wherever located.
    Any officer pursuing an offender outside the corporate limits or extraterritorial jurisdiction of the city shall be entitled to all of the privileges, immunities, and benefits to which he would be entitled if acting within the city, including coverage under the workers' compensation laws.

    NC state police and campus police, and special police are in a different section, and by NC constitution the county sheriff is the highest elected peace officer within the county, trumping state police. considering some of our sheriffs have held office for a minimum of 15-20 years i'm sure they have a lot of clout, both politically as well as good olde boy network and would be a force to have to deal with.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ...

    § 160A-285. Powers and duties of policemen.
    As a peace officer, a policeman shall have within the corporate limits ...

    § 160A-286. Extraterritorial jurisdiction of policemen.
    In addition to their authority within the corporate limits, ... and on all property owned by or leased to the city ...

    NC state police and campus police, and special police are in a different section, and by NC constitution the county sheriff is the highest elected peace officer within the county, trumping state police. considering some of our sheriffs have held office for a minimum of 15-20 years i'm sure they have a lot of clout, both politically as well as good olde boy network and would be a force to have to deal with.

    ipse
    It is helpful, for those of us who are somewhat lacking in our Interwebz search abilities, if members would post cites that were relevant to the OP's question or responded directly to the contention(s) of another member's post.

    We now know, thanks to you, that cops can. What we do not know is, thanks again to you, if they can on private property when in the course of their official duties.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    It is helpful, for those of us who are somewhat lacking in our Interwebz search abilities, if members would post cites that were relevant to the OP's question or responded directly to the contention(s) of another member's post.

    We now know, thanks to you, that cops can. What we do not know is, thanks again to you, if they can on private property when not in the course of their official duties.
    Sorry.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    well considered you are citing the NC AG "helpful guide" (not statute) source that is over 3 years old, which as been replaced a minimum of three times that i know of...nice job. please search to your hearts content for the message you are trying to convey.
    http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislat...GS_14-269.html
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    The anticpated response by the local top cop would likely be as was the top cop in the linked story.
    BELLEVILLE, Ill. (KMOX) – Belleville police chief Bill Clay is ordering his officers to get their pancakes from anywhere but Denny’s, calling the restaurant “political stupidness.”

    http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2013/01/...r-being-armed/
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-SiN View Post
    More of a law question. The other night at local bar
    That I despise because of it's no firearms sign
    I notice 3 men plain clothes open carry walk in
    Within a short time I realized it was ALE

    Now without making some huge debate I pondered
    The laws and legality here
    DOES it or DOES it not apply to LEO'S being a private business
    What DOES the law say or not say on the matter?
    14-415.22
    This Article shall not be construed to require a person who may carry a concealed handgun under the provisions of G.S. 14-269(b) to obtain a concealed handgun permit. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to a person who may lawfully carry a concealed weapon or handgun pursuant to G.S. 14-269(b). A person who may lawfully carry a concealed weapon or handgun pursuant to G.S. 14-269(b)(5) Sworn law-enforcement officers, when off-duty, provided that an officer does not carry a concealed weapon while consuming alcohol or an unlawful controlled substance or while alcohol or an unlawful controlled substance remains in the officer's body;..............
    SHALL NOT be prohibited from carrying the concealed weapon or handgun on property on which a notice is posted prohibiting the carrying of a concealed handgun, unless otherwise prohibited by statute. (1995, c. 398, s. 1; 1997-238, s. 5.)
    Last edited by TFED12; 06-27-2014 at 11:15 AM. Reason: add statute/correction

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    Some very good points made here.
    Might I rephrase the question ?

    Let's say I own a bar and am an anti gun lib
    I display my stupid sign and want no guns of any type
    On MY premises

    Do police officers on or off duty have to abide by it
    Or do they have the "right"
    To ignore it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-SiN View Post
    Some very good points made here.
    Might I rephrase the question ?

    Let's say I own a bar and am an anti gun lib
    I display my stupid sign and want no guns of any type
    On MY premises

    Do police officers on or off duty have to abide by it
    Or do they have the "right"
    To ignore it?
    It clearly states SHALL NOT be prohibited. I have found no other statutes that prohibit.

    A person who may lawfully carry a concealed weapon or handgun pursuant to G.S. 14-269(b) SHALL NOT be prohibited from carrying the concealed weapon or handgun on property on which a notice is posted prohibiting the carrying of a concealed handgun, unless otherwise prohibited by statute. (1995, c. 398, s. 1; 1997-238, s. 5.)

    Disclamer: Of course we are talking open carry. Not concealed. But the OP question was only about a no firearms sign. Not concealed or open carry.
    Last edited by TFED12; 06-27-2014 at 11:18 AM. Reason: add disclamer

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    Regular Member J-SiN's Avatar
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    They were open carrying

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    § 14-415.27. Expanded permit scope for certain persons.

    § 14-415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.
    (c) Except as provided in G.S. 14-415.27, a permit does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:
    (8) On any private premises where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.
    It seems that a cop (off duty) cannot carry if the property "owner" does not like guns on his property. Now, does a uniformed cop, on duty, during a lunch break have to abide by the sign? I don't know. If you are a no gun kind of person and the cop is not on your property on official business then no gun means no gun.....right?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    It seems that a cop (off duty) cannot carry if the property "owner" does not like guns on his property. Now, does a uniformed cop, on duty, during a lunch break have to abide by the sign? I don't know. If you are a no gun kind of person and the cop is not on your property on official business then no gun means no gun.....right?
    Good point. However, that refers to permit carriers. Most cops don't have permits because they fall under LEOSA and are exempt under 14.269b. And are furter exempt under 14-415.22. But, once again.....are we talking "no firearms" signs or open carry. These statutes refer to concealed. So, a cop can carry concealed into a place that has a no firearms sign. But, can he carry open?

    I am a LEO. I don't think I should be given any more rights tham any other law abiding citizen. I never display a badge when concealed or open carry when off duty. I expect no special privelage. I personally will not patronize a place with a no firearms sign even though I am exempt. No Firearms=No money.

    The OP stated that the officers in question were ALE. They were in a bar. Were they conducting an inspection? Or were they patrons?

    The original question was basically .....can LEO ignore a "no firearms" sign? By statute, they can. Concealed.
    However, these LEO's were open carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFED12 View Post
    Good point. However, that refers to permit carriers. Most cops don't have permits because they fall under LEOSA and are exempt under 14.269b. And are further exempt under 14-415.22. But, once again.....are we talking "no firearms" signs or open carry. These statutes refer to concealed. So, a cop can carry concealed into a place that has a no firearms sign. But, can he carry open?

    I am a LEO. I don't think I should be given any more rights than any other law abiding citizen. I never display a badge when concealed or open carry when off duty. I expect no special privilege. I personally will not patronize a place with a no firearms sign even though I am exempt. No Firearms=No money.

    The OP stated that the officers in question were ALE. They were in a bar. Were they conducting an inspection? Or were they patrons?

    The original question was basically .....can LEO ignore a "no firearms" sign? By statute, they can. Concealed.
    However, these LEO's were open carry.
    Bolded to achknowledge the correct response to a no guns sign. Thanks for your service.

    OC or CC, does not matter, ignoring a no gun sign, the owners property right, is not good. I could be charged with trespassing if I ignored the sigh and did not leave. A cop, it seems, can ignore the sign and not be trespassed...really not good. The property owner no longer controls his property. A cop there on official business?? No problem, it is likely a good thing that he is there. But, I'm a stickler for observing a property owners right to control his property. Some are not so inclined.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member J-SiN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFED12 View Post
    Good point. However, that refers to permit carriers. Most cops don't have permits because they fall under LEOSA and are exempt under 14.269b. And are furter exempt under 14-415.22. But, once again.....are we talking "no firearms" signs or open carry. These statutes refer to concealed. So, a cop can carry concealed into a place that has a no firearms sign. But, can he carry open?

    I am a LEO. I don't think I should be given any more rights tham any other law abiding citizen. I never display a badge when concealed or open carry when off duty. I expect no special privelage. I personally will not patronize a place with a no firearms sign even though I am exempt. No Firearms=No money.

    The OP stated that the officers in question were ALE. They were in a bar. Were they conducting an inspection? Or were they patrons?

    The original question was basically .....can LEO ignore a "no firearms" sign? By statute, they can. Concealed.
    However, these LEO's were open carry.
    Kudos to you sir.
    I suspect if we had more officers with your mentality we would be in a lot better shape
    Good replies !

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    14-269(b) This prohibition shall not apply to the following persons:
    14-269 (b)(4) discusses LEs in the performance of their official duties. my comment about local LEs being 'on duty' policy then applies.

    however, since OP changed the parameters and now has the LE OC'g in a place that serves alcohol with the possibility of their consumption of said beverages and signage. apparently, it depends on if the signage is CC only, all firearms? or...

    quote: if the law prohibits only concealed handguns, and not all firearms, a person with a concealed carry permit will comply with the law by moving the handgun from a concealed to an open, non-concealed position. also a person in charge of any private premises may prohibit an openly possessed or concealed handgun by using the trespass law. the occupant can, under th trespass law, order a person openly carrying a firearm to leave. if the order to leave is not obeyed, criminal trespass has been committed. unquote page 11 from NC DOJ manual III, dtd 2013, laws governing concealed handgun and use of deadly force

    however, this does specifically stipulate for off duty...
    14-269 (b)(5) Sworn law-enforcement officers, when off-duty, provided that an officer does not carry a concealed weapon while consuming alcohol or an unlawful controlled substance or while alcohol or an unlawful controlled substance remains in the officer's body;

    14-269 (b)(6) State probation or parole certified officers, when off-duty, provided that an officer does not carry a concealed weapon while consuming alcohol or an unlawful controlled substance or while alcohol or an unlawful controlled substance remains in the officer's body.

    14-269(c) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (a) of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Any person violating the provisions of subsection (a1) of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor for the first offense.

    there is no comment in the statute if section (b) criteria is violated.

    finally, my statement still stands, i seriously doubt if infractions would be enforced by LEs against one of their own.

    so tfed12, how do LEs purchase personal firearms in your neck of the woods thus meeting NC statute 14-402? most around here have CHPs so they do not have to get their supervisors to write them letters authorizing them purchase permission?

    IPSE
    Last edited by solus; 06-27-2014 at 09:59 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    How does this event of no official business go to the OP's question? Chipotle has a no gun policy. SS are armed.

    http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/06/...stomers-127651



    ALSO: http://soopermexican.com/2014/06/23/...otles-gun-ban/

    Last edited by American Patriot; 06-29-2014 at 05:58 PM.

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    Why are his guards there ... its a violence free zone !

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    so tfed12, how do LEs purchase personal firearms in your neck of the woods thus meeting NC statute 14-402? most around here have CHPs so they do not have to get their supervisors to write them letters authorizing them purchase permission?

    IPSE[/QUOTE]

    According to NCGS 14-404(d)(2), LEO can simply show thier Departmental ID to the vendor. However, in my case, I have a CHP. So, I just use that. Once again, I expect no special priveledges and don't use any special priveledges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFED12 View Post
    so tfed12, how do LEs purchase personal firearms in your neck of the woods thus meeting NC statute 14-402? most around here have CHPs so they do not have to get their supervisors to write them letters authorizing them purchase permission?

    IPSE
    TFED12 quote According to NCGS 14-404(d)(2), LEO can simply show thier Departmental ID to the vendor. However, in my case, I have a CHP. So, I just use that. Once again, I expect no special priveledges and don't use any special priveledges.[/QUOTE]

    14-404 has absolutely nothing to do with purchase of a firearm in the state of NC.

    14-404. Issuance or refusal of permit; appeal from refusal; grounds for refusal; sheriff's fee.
    snip:
    (d) Nothing in this Article shall apply to officers authorized by law to carry firearms if the officers identify themselves to the vendor or donor as being officers authorized by law to carry firearms and provide any of the following:
    (1) A letter signed by the officer's supervisor or superior officer stating that the officer is authorized by law to carry a firearm.
    (2) A current photographic identification card issued by the officer's employer.
    (3) A current photographic identification card issued by a State agency that identifies the individual as a law enforcement officer certified by the State of North Carolina.
    (4) A current identification card issued by the officer's employer and another form of current photographic identification.

    14-402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.
    (a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.

    forgive me but perhaps, just perhaps, i missed in NC statute 14-402 the statement, "oh by the way, law enforcement personnel are completely except from this statute cuz they have a badge."

    just saying...next you will telling me the FFLs don't run NICS checks of LE purchasers? if so please provide a cite exempting BATF regulatory requirements.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 07-04-2014 at 07:00 AM. Reason: correction of TFED12's original post
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    TFED12 quote According to NCGS 14-404(d)(2), LEO can simply show thier Departmental ID to the vendor. However, in my case, I have a CHP. So, I just use that. Once again, I expect no special priveledges and don't use any special priveledges.
    14-404 has absolutely nothing to do with purchase of a firearm in the state of NC.

    14-404. Issuance or refusal of permit; appeal from refusal; grounds for refusal; sheriff's fee.
    snip:
    (d) Nothing in this Article shall apply to officers authorized by law to carry firearms if the officers identify themselves to the vendor or donor as being officers authorized by law to carry firearms and provide any of the following:
    (1) A letter signed by the officer's supervisor or superior officer stating that the officer is authorized by law to carry a firearm.
    (2) A current photographic identification card issued by the officer's employer.
    (3) A current photographic identification card issued by a State agency that identifies the individual as a law enforcement officer certified by the State of North Carolina.
    (4) A current identification card issued by the officer's employer and another form of current photographic identification.

    14-402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.
    (a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.

    forgive me but perhaps, just perhaps, i missed in NC statute 14-402 the statement, "oh by the way, law enforcement personnel are completely except from this statute cuz they have a badge."

    just saying...next you will telling me the FFLs don't run NICS checks of LE purchasers? if so please provide a cite exempting BATF regulatory requirements.

    ipse[/QUOTE]

    Solas,

    Exactly! 14-404 outlines Issuance and refusal. Section (d) is exempting LEO from having to be ISSUED a permit. Therefore all they have to do is show ID to the vendor. I never said anything about 14-402 or that you missed any statements. I never said anybody was exempt from NICS checks. I don't know why you would ask me to provide a cite to something I have not stated. I don't know why you are trying to put words in my mouth. I don't know what I said to upset you. I simply quoted the General Statutes that pertained to the question at hand. I didn't write the General Statutes or place them in the chapters and sections they are in. I understand your dislike of the laws exempting LEO's. I do too. I said before, I do not use these exemptions and don't expect them and would not want to be the test case just to find out that a judges opinion of the law is different than yours or mine.

    Have a Great Day
    Last edited by TFED12; 07-07-2014 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Spelling

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