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Thread: Arlington Fly-In at Arlington Airport banned OC/CC

  1. #1
    Regular Member skiingislife725's Avatar
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    Arlington Fly-In at Arlington Airport banned OC/CC

    So, last year, I went to several days of the Arlington Fly-In (which is coming up July 10-12) and on the second day, was contacted by security and told I need to leave the firearm I was OCing in my vehicle in the parking lot. Before they escorted me back to the parking lot, I had a chance to speak with the "head honcho"/manager of the show, which happened to be the mayor of Arlington, Barbara Tolbert. Really nice lady but she never really answered my question about how the Fly-In is set up. That is, the airport itself is city property, but what is the contract like with the Fly-In organization. Are they allowed to ban weapons under that contract? And what's the most effective way of finding that out?

    EDITED TO ADD: Well, I totally forgot that I had already made a post about this 2 years ago. However, if anyone has any helpful tips on getting more information on this, that'd be much appreciated. It looks like the property is under a special use agreement, rather than a lease/rental and it's non-exclusive...but it doesn't say what that "non-exclusive" means, other than to say that others can use the airport as well.

    http://www.4shared.com/office/IJuOpN...Event_Use.html
    Last edited by skiingislife725; 07-01-2014 at 01:45 PM.

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    Find out if the user is allowed private property rights.

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    Regular Member ARADCOM's Avatar
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    Cool Arlington Fly-In OC

    Not sure what the change is, or maybe I just didn't get noticed, but I OCed all day on July 9, 2011 with no issues.

    I took 2 of my grandsons and it was a fun day for them, lots of things to see and a nice carnival with rides.
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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    If the airport is public property, then the particulars of an event that uses it is a matter of public record. File a request for them.

    If the event has a use permit, then they cannot ban firearms unless the city/county that owns the airport can. If it's a rental or short-term lease they can ban them unless the terms of the rental/lease prohibit it.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    If the airport is public property, then the particulars of an event that uses it is a matter of public record. File a request for them.

    If the event has a use permit, then they cannot ban firearms unless the city/county that owns the airport can. If it's a rental or short-term lease they can ban them unless the terms of the rental/lease prohibit it.
    If you're renting a hanger there then they would not be able to prohibit, you, at all.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    If you're renting a hanger there then they would not be able to prohibit, you, at all.
    Or perhaps if you are a 'guest' of someone who has rented a hanger.

    So who has a hanger and wants to post a standing invitation to all OC forum members to visit anytime?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    municipal airport, so preemption would apply.
    9.41.300
    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
    ...
    (e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.

    If the "airshow" is in areas NOT normally open to the public/non-ticketed passengers, they can disallow firearms and still be following the RCW






    http://wsdot.wa.gov/aviation/plannin...ortViewer.aspx

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    municipal airport, so preemption would apply.
    9.41.300
    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
    ...
    (e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.

    If the "airshow" is in areas NOT normally open to the public/non-ticketed passengers, they can disallow firearms and still be following the RCW






    http://wsdot.wa.gov/aviation/plannin...ortViewer.aspx
    Where are the screening areas?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Is the airport closed to all other traffic except for airshow? Is the event operated and controlled by a private (non-gov't) entity? First part might be yes, second part most definitely no. The airport is still functioning as a public entity, thus state preemption would be in order, in my opinion.

    The airport might be able to shut down incoming flights through the operators of the airshow, but it cannot control the airspace, which is performed by gov't employees. The gov't still maintains control of the event.

  10. #10
    Regular Member skiingislife725's Avatar
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    So I made another FOIA request with Arlington and got referred to the airport manager for Arlington Municipal (where the fly-in is located). Unfortunately, it didn't really clarify things any better.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Good Afternoon Brian,

    My name is Tim Mensonides and I work for the Arlington Airport, I am responding to your public records request. The standard language the Airport has in all Use Agreements states this:

    “Additionally, the presence of weapons, whether real or fake, requires the written permission of the Airport Manager. In such case the only weapons loaded with live ammunition will be those used by the Arlington Police Department. The permittee shall inform the local law enforcement officers to include the Arlington City Police Chief, Snohomish County Sheriff and the local Washington State Patrol office of the number and type of weapons to be used at least four weeks in advance.”


    I also attached the Fly-In’s Use Agreement. Please contact me if you have further questions.

    Kind Regards,

    Tim Mensonides
    Airport Coordinator
    Arlington Municipal Airport
    18204 59th Ave NE Ste A
    Arlington, WA 98223
    Phone: 360-403-3471
    tmensonides@arlingtonwa.gov
    www.arlingtonwa.gov

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------












    Tim,


    Thanks for the quick response. I was hoping for some clarification on your last response. I was wondering what the rules were regarding guests to the Fly-In, rather than the rules for the permittee. In the quote you mentioned, it's referring to the use of weapons by the permittee and the need to notify the airport manager of any intended use prior to the event. Being city property, RCW 9.41.290
    doesn't allow for the city to ban the lawful carry of firearms. Am I understanding this correctly? That is, that the permittee must notify the airport manager of intended weapons usage, but that guests are allowed to do so because of RCW 9.41.290 allowing for carry on city property?


    Sincerely,
    Brian Kirk

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






    Tim Mensonides
    Jul 7 (2 days ago)

    Brian,

    Our lease with the Fly-In prohibits them and their attendees from carrying firearms unless prior permission has been granted by the Airport Manager. I have forwarded your specific question on to the city attorney for further clarification. When he responds to me I will pass along his answer.

    Kind Regards,


    Tim Mensonides
    Airport Coordinator
    Arlington Municipal Airport
    18204 59th Ave NE Ste A
    Arlington, WA 98223
    Phone: 360-403-3471
    tmensonides@arlingtonwa.gov
    www.arlingtonwa.gov

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    From: Brian
    Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 10:23 AM
    To: Tim Mensonides
    Subject: Re: Special Use Agreement






    Good Morning Brian,

    I spoke with our attorney. Your request is a legal question. I sent you the appropriate documents as requested. At this point you should consult with an attorney if you are in need of legal advice.

    Regards,

    Tim Mensonides
    Airport Coordinator
    Arlington Municipal Airport
    18204 59th Ave NE Ste A
    Arlington, WA 98223
    Phone: 360-403-3471
    tmensonides@arlingtonwa.gov
    www.arlingtonwa.gov

  11. #11
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    Sounds like an appropriate response. City employees all have a fiduciary responsibility to protect taxpayer money, and the response about a "legal question" was given in that regard. You want an answer (opinion, really) to a legal question? Hire your own lawyer at your own expense. Let him expose himself to a malpractice suit, not the city attorney.

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    The last response is definitely an "Oh crap! I'm washing my hands of this one right now!" response.


    I don't know . . . If I was an Arlington resident, I wouldn't want my city attorney giving out free legal advice.

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    The last response is definitely an "Oh crap! I'm washing my hands of this one right now!" response.
    Sounded that way to me also. How can a city REQUIRE a lessee ban guns?
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member skiingislife725's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Sounded that way to me also. How can a city REQUIRE a lessee ban guns?
    Yah I would assume they aren't even allowed to (and possibly just realized it), which is probably why they shut down and pulled the "speak with an attorney" line. Which is fine, I wasn't looking for an opinion. I wanted to see their agreement saying that attendees were banned. All I see is that the permittee is banned, which is probably not legal either, but I've got other things to worry about than what the permittee is agreeing to.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Sounds like an appropriate response. City employees all have a fiduciary responsibility to protect taxpayer money, and the response about a "legal question" was given in that regard. You want an answer (opinion, really) to a legal question? Hire your own lawyer at your own expense. Let him expose himself to a malpractice suit, not the city attorney.
    They have a responsibility to inform citizens about exactly what the law means, and how they (the city) is following it and how they (the citizens) can comply.

    Telling a citizen to "hire an attorney' when the citizen is trying to understand legal requirements to access public land is, crap.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    (2)
    Prepare, draft or supervise the preparation of all ordinances, resolutions, leases, instruments or conveyances, contracts and agreements, and other such and similar instruments as may be required by the business of the city.
    He prepares, drafts or supervises all ordinances, resolutions, leases, etc.

    A$$hole should answer questions about said activity in plain language.

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    I have talked to many officers in King County about this....

    There is precedence in the law that states that no city can make a law more restrictive on Gun rights and where to carry then the State law. Its considered a violation of a persons State constitutional rights. For example,,, a city said no guns allowed at a city park during a carnival. It went to court and the city lost. Washington state law trumps any city laws when it comes to rights and allowances for an individual. They cant say, this doesn't apply here. Unless its illegal to carry there normally, its legal to carry during an event. So the question is, can you carry in those areas normally? I think you can, but I'm not certain on that. But if you CC, what business is it of theirs anyway? but even with oc, its legal for instance go to a city counsel meeting and if they say no guns, its violating the law. your not allowed in the jail area, ect, if there is one at the court house where they meet at. but you have to give people access who carry, its the Law. We have some of the best Gun rights in the country in this state. If they turn you away, and its legal to normally have guns there, and its public property, they can have one heck of a lawsuit for breaking your rights. That's just what I was told by several officers. So I know its not gospel, just saying.
    Last edited by Warriorpoet; 07-11-2014 at 07:49 AM.

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    They have a responsibility to inform citizens about exactly what the law means, and how they (the city) is following it and how they (the citizens) can comply.


    No, "they" (the city's legal staff) don't. They have the responsibility to advise the city staff in all matters legal, and advocate for the city when necessary.

    I live in unincorporated Pierce County, so I don't want the Pierce County Prosecutor's Office giving legal advice to anyone who might ask, free of charge. I don't want my tax money spent that way. I don't want the county's parks staff keeping someone's private yard either - it's the same thing.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    No, "they" (the city's legal staff) don't. They have the responsibility to advise the city staff in all matters legal, and advocate for the city when necessary.

    I live in unincorporated Pierce County, so I don't want the Pierce County Prosecutor's Office giving legal advice to anyone who might ask, free of charge. I don't want my tax money spent that way. I don't want the county's parks staff keeping someone's private yard either - it's the same thing.[/COLOR]
    Then they should make the law comprehensible to the layman. Or explain it when asked.

    Every time a @^&$# lawyer writing something a high school graduate can't understand that lawyer should be forced to eat a copy of Black's Law Dictionary.

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    We went through all this two years ago in the last thread. We didn't seem to arrive at a definitive answer, and it seems we still don't have a definitive answer. I OC to the airport, slip the scandium framed .357 revolver in my pocket when in the parking area and CC during the show. OC again after returning to my car for the rest of the day.

    The airport itself has no secure areas like a large passenger airport under Class C or B airspace. They do have a secure fence around the property. But one can access it freely at the hangars and restaurant. If I flew in there as a pilot,I would be OC'ing, as it is a municipal Airport.

    The show is run by a different group and sponsored by the EAA, and so until the question is positively answered, I treat it like I do malls. I want to go there, so CC while in the perimeter.

    A definitive answer would certainly be helpful.
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