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Thread: "Gun owners"

  1. #1
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    "Gun owners"

    I keep seeing this used. Over and everywhere. "Gun owners."

    I think that the use of this phrase is often detrimental to the gun rights cause. "We" are not "gun owners." We are not a club, membership based upon or identified by ownership of a firearm. Every type of person owns firearms. "Anti-gun" politicians, criminals, etc, those people are not referred to as "gun owners" though they certainly do own firearms. The perpetuation of this sort of club mentality is artificially cumulative of gun owning individuals and separative between those who own and those who do not own firearms and falsely deteriorates the understanding that we are all individuals, one not representative of another, and certainly not because we both happen to own firearms. It also serves to obfuscate the real, underlying issues related to firearm ownership and possession, for instance with control advocates being portrayed as freedom advocates solely because they happen to own a firearm and act as though they are proud of that fact.

    I'm not saying anyone here has intentionally used it in a negative manner, but I consistently do see it used in a negative manner and I think that we should be careful to not subliminally portray any of these negative ideas by the use of this phrase.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Several of the dangers of this club mentality manifest themselves quite clearly within certain CC only circles. It leads to elitism quite easily, among other things.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member aa1911's Avatar
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    true that, interesting observation.

    I'm technically a gun owner but with nothing else in common with the next guy, hardly makes us a 'club' or unified body being that calling someone a gun owner is as arbitrary as calling folks who own knives 'knife owners'. And for the record, knives kill more people than AR15's... just don't tell mom's demand ridiculousness that.... or they'll ban knives in Target also....

  4. #4
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    uh, er, definition of owner is: 'a person who owns'.

    ok, so i am a bronco, house, computer, firearm, pellet, air rifle,BB, knife, pet...owner? could you advise me and the readership which word says i belong to a 'club' (meaning a group of persons organized for a social, literary, athletic, political, or other purpose or an organization that offers its subscribers certain benefits, as discounts, bonuses, or interest, in return for regular purchases or payments) and please, please pray tell, which word is, in your opinion, derogatory & prejudicial to my standing in the grand scheme of things?

    baseball bats wins over firearms too...

    Je pense, donc je suis

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 07-02-2014 at 10:42 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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  5. #5
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Driver vs. car owner
    Shooter vs. gun owner

    Much ado about nothing.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  6. #6
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Driver vs. car owner
    Shooter vs. gun owner

    Much ado about nothing.
    'Don't drive drunk, it gives the rest of us "car owners" a bad name. It gives ammo to those who wish to prohibit cars, and force everyone to use public transportation.'

    Whoa now, some ******* drunk driver has nothing to do with me. "We," the drunk driver and I, are not "car owners" together, we are completely independent individuals, and he and his actions are representative of me and my actions in no way.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Driver vs. car owner
    Shooter vs. gun owner

    Much ado about nothing.
    +1

    I am one guilty of using the term "gun owner". I use it because certain individuals are gun owners though they do not respect the RKBA. These people use the "I am a gun owner"(Joe Biden) to claim they are pro 2A when they are as far from as you can get. We even see this on this fora, not to name names, but there are a few individuals who claim to be "gun owners" and are nowhere close.

    Thankfully the public is not buying the "gun owner" excuse for attempts at disarming the population.
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  8. #8
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I see nothing wrong about the use of the term, "gun owner". To me, that is no different than the owner of some other item such as a lawn mower, a shovel, dinner plates, or even a home owner.

    Other's mileage may vary.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 07-03-2014 at 08:30 AM.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Here is what I'm referring to... I read comments like the following on the daily.

    "I will have to disagree, ------. Openly supporting people that cast a bad light on all gun owners makes us no better than them. If we want to be respected as responsible stewards of the Second we need to police our own. Just because it is legal does not make it intelligent."

    This person's "collective" uses of "gun owners," "we," "us," "our own," are all completely illegitimate. It perpetuates a club mentality ("police our own" ... members of this club) and falsely relates gun owners to each other -- and causes a perceived division between those that own guns and those that don't, as if those who own guns are trying to prove something to those that do not.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I hear what you are saying. I think its that persons fault more than anything else. Some people are so conditioned against individuality that everything becomes a collective.

    That person probably also has a tendency to conflate society with the state, and insist that you be stolen from by the state, because you owe it to society.

    Bad actions by people are on those individuals. I would counter that argument maybe with, does Ted Bundy give all white people a bad name?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  11. #11
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    If you own a gun...you are a gun owner.

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  12. #12
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If you own a gun...you are a gun owner.

    Yes. You are. But when people say "gun owners" they are not simply referring to people that own guns, they are referring to an imaginary brotherhood. It is not, you are a gun owner, it is, "we are Gun Owners." It is being used as a title, not a mere description.
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    About 3 years ago, my mom bought a .38. A week later, she put 5 rounds through it.

    She hasn't even looked at it since.

    Someone who owns a gun, or a "Gun Owner"?

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    Gun Owners....

    I understand what you are saying... and depending on the context of the overall conversation it could be taken in a good or bad way.

    The one that really bothers me is "He's packing heat." the media uses it all the time also.

    I have asked several people what is the first image that pops into their head when they hear that expression.

    The vast majority have said some gang banger standing there point their "heat" at you, with the "heat" turned sideways.

  15. #15
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    you are working way to hard to own the rock you are trying to push up the hill...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  16. #16
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    you are working way to hard to own the rock you are trying to push up the hill...

    ipse
    No.. I see what I am describing on a regular basis. Clearly some others here recognize what I am pointing out. Unlike you, when I read into things, I'm literate. I'm uninterested in your opinion, I won't be responding to you further.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    I was just awaiting to discern from you how the use of 'owners', in any context you wish to use it, in anyway is prejudicial or causes degradation to my social standing or personal standing or in any iota causes me distress.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  18. #18
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Yes. You are. But when people say "gun owners" they are not simply referring to people that own guns, they are referring to an imaginary brotherhood. It is not, you are a gun owner, it is, "we are Gun Owners." It is being used as a title, not a mere description.
    What people?

    "Prius owners"
    "Tesla owners"
    "Dog owners"
    "Glock owners"

    Context is everything.....if you are overly sensitive to context.

    Being worried about what the anti-liberty crowd thinks of "gun owners" is a rock that is being pushed up hill.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Strangely, I find myself on the same side of this issue as SE. Not to the extent of sensitivity he seems to be projecting, but that is but a matter of degree.

    Words, and labels especially, carry very strong meanings. From the very second day of human speech when Og labled Ug as a "dirty [expletive deleted] to today we purposely use lables to cause those being labled to be deamonized, though of as less desirable, less deserving of the human rights.

    I will admit to stretching things a bit myself on an occassion or two by substituting common everyday objects for "guns" and repeating the gun-grabbing anti-freedom folks' rantings. Yes, car drivers are responsible for killing tens of thousands of people every year. We ought to do something about car drivers like restrict them to only 5 horsepower cars, or cars that can only go 5 miles per hour. And unless you are at least 21 and can pass a background check you will have to take public transportation because you are, merely by virtue of your age, too dangerous to be trusted driving a car.

    The problem with that is that it, like the "gun owners" thing, lumps everybody together as opposed to focusing on the mis-behavior of the individual.

    I've always been pretty PO'd at being lumped in with the Cletum/Cleti that misuse a gun to prove they are less than fit to remain among society. Which is why I want the label applied to me to be "law-abiding gun owner":

    Think about this headline: Law-abiding gun owner defends family from crazed armed home invader.

    Although not more or less truthful that what we normall read, it "sounds" better because of the labels used.

    stay safe.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Strangely, I find myself on the same side of this issue as SE. Not to the extent of sensitivity he seems to be projecting, but that is but a matter of degree.

    Words, and labels especially, carry very strong meanings. From the very second day of human speech when Og labled Ug as a "dirty [expletive deleted] to today we purposely use lables to cause those being labled to be deamonized, though of as less desirable, less deserving of the human rights.

    I will admit to stretching things a bit myself on an occassion or two by substituting common everyday objects for "guns" and repeating the gun-grabbing anti-freedom folks' rantings. Yes, car drivers are responsible for killing tens of thousands of people every year. We ought to do something about car drivers like restrict them to only 5 horsepower cars, or cars that can only go 5 miles per hour. And unless you are at least 21 and can pass a background check you will have to take public transportation because you are, merely by virtue of your age, too dangerous to be trusted driving a car.

    The problem with that is that it, like the "gun owners" thing, lumps everybody together as opposed to focusing on the mis-behavior of the individual.

    I've always been pretty PO'd at being lumped in with the Cletum/Cleti that misuse a gun to prove they are less than fit to remain among society. Which is why I want the label applied to me to be "law-abiding gun owner":

    Think about this headline: Law-abiding gun owner defends family from crazed armed home invader.

    Although not more or less truthful that what we normall read, it "sounds" better because of the labels used.

    stay safe.
    You? Law abiding? Prove it. A lack of you being arrested is not evidence that you are law abiding.

    Words do mean things, especially to the overly sensitive crowd.

    If you own a car you are a car owner and potentially a lethal threat to your fellow motorists....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  21. #21
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What people?

    "Prius owners"
    "Tesla owners"
    "Dog owners"
    "Glock owners"

    Context is everything.....if you are overly sensitive to context.

    Being worried about what the anti-liberty crowd thinks of "gun owners" is a rock that is being pushed up hill.
    I don't think you understand what I'm trying to suggest. Some people use "gun owners" to portray a negative meaning, illegitimately. When "gun owners" use the same term "gun owners," even if they do not intend to portray the same meaning as those using it illegitimately or negatively, they're unnecessarily lending validity to the negative use of the term. (ETA: Not sure if it's even relevant that even when the term is used not to be malicious it's still lazily inaccurate - who has ever said "all gun owners" and literally meant every person that owns a gun?) When people read "gun owners" they will not stop and think about what it means in the context that it is used in and whether or not it's valid in that context, they will automatically recognize it. There's no use for it but laziness. Don't allow people to think lazily when it leads to harmful and false conclusions, misrepresentations. It is very simple to use a different term to spur deeper thought, better and more accurate conclusions and understandings.

    Moreover it appears that you think I'm having a fit over the use of this term... Not in the least. I just made an observation that I thought was interesting, and that some others might find interesting as well. I, personally, will probably try to avoid using the term "gun owners." You're of course free to keep using it, and I probably won't say a word about it. From time to time when someone uses it negatively and incorrectly, to try and be sly and deceitful, I'll probably call them out on it as I have in the past. Shouldn't affect you one bit.

    ETA2: Couldn't we all agree that one of the problems with society, and one of the problems that fosters opposition to rights, and particularly the RKBA, is that people simply do not think enough? Then why would it be a bad thing to make minor adjustments to your terminology to help spur deeper thought in people? It's not about a "sensitivity" to "correctness" it's about helping people not fall victim to purposefully misleading catch phrases and buzzwording.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 07-07-2014 at 02:04 PM.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I don't think you understand what I'm trying to suggest. ....
    What is interesting about your suggestion is that a simple descriptor is so easily sliced and diced to fit a certain agenda. I guess we could segregate "gun owners" into firearm owners vs. gun owners. Would this provide the fidelity that you seek. The illegitimate use of a gun/firearm is what it is. I could just as easily use firearm owner in a negative context as is gun owner. The focus on descriptors is important from time to time but in the general sense gun owner is neither negative or positive, in my view.

    YMMV
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    You? Law abiding? Prove it. A lack of you being arrested is not evidence that you are law abiding.

    Words do mean things, especially to the overly sensitive crowd.

    If you own a car you are a car owner and potentially a lethal threat to your fellow motorists....
    And as far as I know, sirrah, you are a potential child rapist and eater of the still-beating hearts of virgins.

    As far as that desire for proof that I am law-abiding? I give you not merely the verdict of my criminal trial but the honorable judge's comment that at least at the time of both the alleged offense and the resolution of the criminal charge it wa perfectly legal to point one's finger at another person.

    As for the comment about not being arrested not being a metric for law-abiding-ness? Is it now my fault that the police are concentrating on jaywalkers and little children operating lemonade stands without Health Department certification?

    There is help for the overly-sensitive crowd. Lately I have been buying it in the bulkpaks.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    stay safe
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  24. #24
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What is interesting about your suggestion is that a simple descriptor is so easily sliced and diced to fit a certain agenda. I guess we could segregate "gun owners" into firearm owners vs. gun owners. Would this provide the fidelity that you seek. The illegitimate use of a gun/firearm is what it is. I could just as easily use firearm owner in a negative context as is gun owner. The focus on descriptors is important from time to time but in the general sense gun owner is neither negative or positive, in my view.

    YMMV
    I can't tell if we're on the same page or not but I think maybe. You are probably tired of me, seemed to be by first post, but,

    Yes, it is so easily sliced and diced to fit an agenda. The reason I brought this up is because I see this often used against me and others like me. It isn't a sensitivity to accuracy, it's a defense to being attacked by snake-like privilege and status seekers. When people say gun owners they almost never mean it literally. There's nothing inherently malicious about it, and really in most cases it's not even a bad thing. What is meant is understood even though the term being used is inaccurate. That's not a problem. But people take advantage of this fact often to pit an imaginary brotherhood against people they don't agree with, while trying to subconsciously persuade the readers that they are a part of this brotherhood because they own a firearm.
    Advocate freedom please

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