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1245A Defender · Jul 9, 2014

Wowwie!!!!

OC for ME said:
All a cop needs to do is let a prosecutor and/or judge sort it out.

You may beat the rap, but you will not beat the ride.

RAS is "articulated" in a courtroom, usually.

A cop is being polite when he explains why he is "requesting" your ID. In Missouri a cop must inform the citizen by what authority he acts when he arrests a citizen (RSMo 544.180).

Fortunately, in MO, a citizen is arrested under the afore mentioned statue when not free to go. So, the cop must inform the citizen.

Different states may be...umm, different.

You could NOT be more wrong!!!

kcgunfan · Jul 9, 2014

The RAS of a crime is provided by someone openly carrying a firearm. Because that can be made a crime in Missouri. The affirmative defense is the possession of a CCW permit. You are welcome not to use your defense, but I would not recommend it.

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Fallschirjmäger · Jul 9, 2014

kcgunfan said:
The RAS of a crime is provided by someone openly carrying a firearm. Because that can be made a crime in Missouri. The affirmative defense is the possession of a CCW permit. You are welcome not to use your defense, but I would not recommend it.

Okay, this is getting tiresome but let's play the game.

It's a suspicion of what crime in the Missouri code? Arson? Burglary? Check fraud? What?

"Your Honor, I saw the defendant openly carrying a handgun and that gave me a reasonable suspicion that he was in violation of Missouri Revised Statute 571. _______ (fill in the blank).

kcgunfan · Jul 9, 2014

The crime of openly carrying a firearm, just like I said. In Missouri, political subdivisions can make it illegal to carry a firearm.

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BB62 · Jul 9, 2014

kcgunfan said:
The crime of openly carrying a firearm, just like I said. In Missouri, political subdivisions can make it illegal to carry a firearm.

But that may change soon: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?122574-Sb-656

kcgunfan · Jul 9, 2014

Yes, I know... But it's not changed yet, and even if it it changed, my point still holds.

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Fallschirjmäger · Jul 9, 2014

kcgunfan said:
The crime of openly carrying a firearm, just like I said. In Missouri, political subdivisions can make it illegal to carry a firearm.

No you didn't say, and you still haven't said. Allow me to ask again.
What section of the Missouri Revised Code would be violated by openly carrying a handgun? They're all numbered, so you should have no problem finding it, if it exists.

I'll get you started, "Openly carrying a firearm is a violation or MRS _______." All you have to do is fill in the blank.
Heck, I like you so I'll make it even easier.
Here's the section you'll be looking for. Just put your finger on the right one and let us know which it is, simple no?

There might be an illegality, but that would only apply within certain municipalities, something you didn't mention in your "The RAS of a crime is provided by someone openly carrying a firearm" post.

kcgunfan · Jul 9, 2014

First of all, it's RsMO, not MRS. Read what I wrote again. I never said that the state bans open carry because it doesn't. But we have only partial preemption. So political subdivisions may restrict or ban the open carry of firearms. If you don't believe me, you may reference RsMO 21.750.3 . So, if you carry where the restrictions are in place, you are in violation of the ordinances until you prove you are covered by one of the exceptions. It's not that hard.

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Fallschirjmäger · Jul 9, 2014

Now you're getting better. As we have discovered it's not "Open carrying a handgun is a reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime" (as you wrote). It's "Openly carrying a handgun is a reasonable suspicion of a crime Where Open Carrying a Firearm is Prohibited" an unsubtle and quite distinctive difference.

It's the difference between saying "A single person driving a car is RAS of driving illegally" and "A single person driving a car in a car pool lane where single drivers are prohibited is RAS of driving illegally".

kcgunfan · Jul 9, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
Now you're getting better. As we have discovered it's not "Open carrying a handgun is a reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime" (as you wrote). It's "Openly carrying a handgun is a reasonable suspicion of a crime Where Open Carrying a Firearm is Prohibited" an unsubtle and quite distinctive difference.

All I did was say what I said in the previous post slightly differently. It's your reading comprehension that has improved.

As far as the unsubtle and quite distinctive difference goes, I was responding in the context of the OP which is what happens if you carry in a political subdivision that requires a CCW permit. My comments were never intended to apply to someone open carrying where it is perfectly legal. I may have confused you with that subtlety. If so, I apologize.

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OC for ME · Jul 10, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
Okay, this is getting tiresome but let's play the game.

It's a suspicion of what crime in the Missouri code? Arson? Burglary? Check fraud? What?

"Your Honor, I saw the defendant openly carrying a handgun and that gave me a reasonable suspicion that he was in violation of Missouri Revised Statute 571. _______ (fill in the blank).

Political subdivisions can ban gats and the crime is unlawful use of weapon. Example of a local code provided below.

SECTION 210.250: WEAPONS -- CARRYING CONCEALED -- OTHER UNLAWFUL USE
A. A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons if he/she knowingly:
6. Openly carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;

If your gunna chastise us hayseeds out here in flyover country regarding our knowledge of RSMo then please use a little Google Fu and know what the F you're talking about first. Ya feelin me bro?

The cop's RAS is your OCd gat cuz you are unlawfully using a weapon by OCing. Is this better?

OC for ME · Jul 10, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
Now you're getting better. As we have discovered it's not "Open carrying a handgun is a reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime" (as you wrote). It's "Openly carrying a handgun is a reasonable suspicion of a crime Where Open Carrying a Firearm is Prohibited" an unsubtle and quite distinctive difference.

It's the difference between saying "A single person driving a car is RAS of driving illegally" and "A single person driving a car in a car pool lane where single drivers are prohibited is RAS of driving illegally".

Your query was "what crime" not "where."

It's a suspicion of what crime in the Missouri code? Arson? Burglary? Check fraud? What?

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 10, 2014

OC for ME said:
If your[sic] gunna chastise us hayseeds out here in flyover country regarding our knowledge of RSMo then please use a little Google Fu and know what the F you're talking about first. Ya feelin me bro?

With your kind permission, I'm going to pretend you're just having an off moment and continue as though we were having an adult conversation. Does that meet with your approval?

I'm well aware that political subdivision in the state of Missouri have the authority to ban the open carrying of pistols. My point was, and still remains that merely open carrying a pistol in Missouri is not a suspicion of a crime, unless and until said pistol is carried in a jurisdiction where open carry is prohibited. As 'location' was not mentioned and is quite important to said crime, I thought it important to mention.

I respect your opinion enough to ascribe the use of "your" instead of "you're" to mere haste and carelessness and not to any lack of education.

Edit: A belated "Thank You" for someone finally mentioning a code under which someone openly carrying a firearm might be charged - The Municipal Code of Ellisville, MO.

Richieg150 · Jul 10, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
Okay, this is getting tiresome but let's play the game.

It's a suspicion of what crime in the Missouri code? Arson? Burglary? Check fraud? What?

"Your Honor, I saw the defendant openly carrying a handgun and that gave me a reasonable suspicion that he was in violation of Missouri Revised Statute 571. _______ (fill in the blank).

kcgunfan said:
The crime of openly carrying a firearm, just like I said. In Missouri, political subdivisions can make it illegal to carry a firearm.

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I'm not sure about Georgia, but here in Missouri, EACH city, IF they choose can pass a city ordinance AGAINST Open Carrying a firearm. IF you decide to OC in that city, you may be spotted by LEO's, ticketed and maybe arrested for a misdemeanor charge of disorderly conduct. That's our problem in our state now, you can legally OC in one city, cross the street and be ILLEGAL in its neighboring city. IAML.... but the last time I checked.....violation of a city ordinance is a crime. SO...... i'm not sure WHY all the hoopla on the original question??? He is OC in a city that has a NO OC city ordinance WITHOUT a CCW, so without producing his CCW upon request, to prove his is legal to OC per. city ordinance, or just refusing to produce a CCW, he will be in violation of THAT city ordinance and all that goes with that violation. For ANYBODY out there who wants to test THEIR theories on this subject...... come to Missouri, come to North Kansas City, park at the quick trip there, get out and walk down the street OC your firearm, AND WAIT.... Since NKC has a NO OC ordinance, period, and I know its enforced....you WILL get your chance to prove your point.....be sure to post how it went......

Richieg150 · Jul 10, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
With your kind permission, I'm going to pretend you're just having an off moment and continue as though we were having an adult conversation. Does that meet with your approval?

I'm well aware that political subdivision in the state of Missouri have the authority to ban the open carrying of pistols. My point was, and still remains that merely open carrying a pistol in Missouri is not a suspicion of a crime, unless and until said pistol is carried in a jurisdiction where open carry is prohibited. As 'location' was not mentioned and is quite important to said crime, I thought it important to mention.

I respect your opinion enough to ascribe the use of "your" instead of "you're" to mere haste and carelessness and not to any lack of education.

My post agrees to what you have posted,,,,, I just wanted to try and explain myself clearer.... IF there is such a thing..

OC for ME · Jul 11, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
With your kind permission, I'm going to pretend you're just having an off moment and continue as though we were having an adult conversation. Does that meet with your approval?

I'm well aware that political subdivision in the state of Missouri have the authority to ban the open carrying of pistols. My point was, and still remains that merely open carrying a pistol in Missouri is not a suspicion of a crime, unless and until said pistol is carried in a jurisdiction where open carry is prohibited. As 'location' was not mentioned and is quite important to said crime, I thought it important to mention.

I respect your opinion enough to ascribe the use of "your" instead of "you're" to mere haste and carelessness and not to any lack of education.

Please pardon my hasty harshness...no offense was intended though it was obviously presented.

"...what the F you're [you are] talking..."

I hold your views in h9igh regard, always have. The question, [your] question was "what is the crime?" The crime is unlawful use. RSMo 21.750.3 is the state statute that authorizes a town to charge you with that RSMo (no OC is not in 571.030), unlawful use of a weapon. It is a burr under the saddle of the MO constitution. Makes no sense to me but it is what it is.

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 11, 2014

And I am again in confusion.
As you said, RSMo 21.750.3 is the authority for a political subdivision to regulate the open carrying of firearms.

3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243.

But, how would one be "using" said firearm without a violation of one of the sub-paragraphs of 571.030

571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or
(2) Sets a spring gun; or
(3) Discharges or shoots a firearm into a dwelling house, a railroad train, boat, aircraft, or motor vehicle as defined in section 302.010, or any building or structure used for the assembling of people; or
(4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or
(5) Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person, while he or she is intoxicated, and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner or discharges such firearm or projectile weapon unless acting in self-defense; or
(6) Discharges a firearm within one hundred yards of any occupied schoolhouse, courthouse, or church building; or
(7) Discharges or shoots a firearm at a mark, at any object, or at random, on, along or across a public highway or discharges or shoots a firearm into any outbuilding; or
(8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or
(9) Discharges or shoots a firearm at or from a motor vehicle, as defined in section 301.010, discharges or shoots a firearm at any person, or at any other motor vehicle, or at any building or habitable structure, unless the person was lawfully acting in self-defense; or
(10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board.

Which one of the listed sub-paragraphs will be charged?

kcgunfan · Jul 11, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
And I am again in confusion.
As you said, RSMo 21.750.3 is the authority for a political subdivision to regulate the open carrying of firearms.

But, how would one be "using" said firearm without a violation of one of the sub-paragraphs of 571.030

Which one of the listed sub-paragraphs will be charged?

It's subsection 2 that's the problem, not 3.

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Fallschirjmäger · Jul 11, 2014

kcgunfan said:
It's subsection 2 that's the problem, not 3.

If it's not too much trouble, could I get you to expound on that just a teensie bit more?
What particular part of subsection 2 and of what part of the MO code?

kcgunfan · Jul 11, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
If it's not too much trouble, could I get you to expound on that just a teensie bit more?
What particular part of subsection 2 and of what part of the MO code?

Oops, it is 3.
Missouri Revised Statutes

Chapter 21
General Assembly
Section 21.750

3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243.

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