If you don't like the laws, move & you're consenting, entering a social contract

OC for ME · Jul 22, 2014

Primus said:
I'll try it again...since it was put pretty clear in this post with YOUR claims/quotes.

So again.. Please back up your claims. Also, still waiting on the violent force claim about leaving the country.

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http://www.dhs.gov/western-hemisphere-travel-initiative

It is against federal law, Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHIT) and Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (IRTPA) to depart the US without first showing a passport, or other "acceptable" document. If I wish to leave the US I must ID myself, without meeting this requirement I could be arrested, possibly violently, if I put up a stink. You're a cop, what would you do if a citizen put up a stink in the exercise of their rights. We do have a right to leave the US do we not?

I suspect that your "anything to get home at the end of the day" instinct will kick in.

Primus · Jul 22, 2014

OC for ME said:
http://www.dhs.gov/western-hemisphere-travel-initiative

It is against federal law, Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHIT) and Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (IRTPA) to depart the US without first showing a passport, or other "acceptable" document. If I wish to leave the US I must ID myself, without meeting this requirement I could be arrested, possibly violently, if I put up a stink. You're a cop, what would you do if a citizen put up a stink in the exercise of their rights. We do have a right to leave the US do we not?

I suspect that your "anything to get home at the end of the day" instinct will kick in.

That applies to citizens. We are talking about leaving the country to get away from ceasar not just on vacation.

Also I don't see anything on the website says arrest. Can you copy and paste that section since I missed it?

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OC for ME · Jul 22, 2014

OC for ME said:
...anyway.

Taxes are Caesar's tribute being "voluntarily given" at the point of a sword....

OC for ME said:
You have posted in another thread that if you were to witness a fellow cop violating the law, during the course of he "upholding the law," you would not intervene to stop the law breaking in progress as long as there was no threat, in your opinion, of the citizen being injured or killed. You stated that you would call a supervisor and stand back, not get involved. Therefore you would gladly inflict violent physical force upon a citizen who did not pay their "fair share" at the direction of the state, you would gladly do so because you remain employed as a cop....

OC for ME said:
...Also, if I tried to leave the country without the state giving me permission I would be subject to violent physical force. Crossing the border into Canada or Mexico is against the law, not to mention what Canada and Mexico would do to me once they knew of my illegal border crossing....

OC for ME said:
It is a CFR, state.gov tells you what you need to cross the border....

OC for ME said:
...Other than the country part, you are correct, Caesar will not give a darn if I stay or leave. But, no matter where I go Caesar will take his tribute, by violent physical force if need be, if I refuse to pay him his tribute.

Primus said:
I expected better.

YOU made the claim that I quoted. So either cite something that backs it up or don't. There is no "I'll make a claim and then cite it halfway". Its not on me to search an ENTIRE website to back up YOUR claim.

You are being obtuse at this point.

Primus said:
I'll try it again...since it was put pretty clear in this post with YOUR claims/quotes.

So again.. Please back up your claims. Also, still waiting on the violent force claim about leaving the country.

Done.

I have led you by the hand, so to speak. The evidence is clear. Caesar will use violent physical force to gain his tribute. Caesar will not permit me to leave the US on my terms, it must be done on Caesar's terms. Essentially, I do not have the right to travel.

OC for ME · Jul 22, 2014

Primus said:
That applies to citizens. We are talking about leaving the country to get away from ceasar not just on vacation.

Also I don't see anything on the website says arrest. Can you copy and paste that section since I missed it?

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Ya know, there are links in the text of the webpage I link to.

The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI) requires all citizens of the United States, Canada, Mexico, and Bermuda to have a passport or other accepted document that establishes the bearer’s identity and nationality to enter or depart the United States from within the Western Hemisphere.

IRTPA, in part, required the DHS and DOS to develop and implement a plan to require all travelers, U.S. citizens and foreign nationals alike, to present a passport or other acceptable document that denotes identity and citizenship when entering the United States.

I can't help ya anymore at this point, you are being obstinate. Clinging to a position is commendable. When that position is not firmly seated in liberty then a reevaluation of the position is recommended.

Primus · Jul 22, 2014

OC for ME said:
You are being obtuse at this point.

Done.

I have led you by the hand, so to speak. The evidence is clear. Caesar will use violent physical force to gain his tribute. Caesar will not permit me to leave the US on my terms, it must be done on Caesar's terms. Essentially, I do not have the right to travel.

You posted a generic website that says CITIZENS need paperwork to leave.... No s*** because they are intending to come back.

I'm.obtuse?

You throw around catch phrases like "sword point" and "violence" about not letting you leave yet you can't even show me ANYTHING that says they will arrest you. You didn't "lead " me anywhere. As you just posted (thank you) you repeatedly spout about violence and provided 1 generic website that has nothing to do with rescinding citizenship or leaving permanently. Just because you keep repeating it doesnt make it true...

Like I said I expected better.

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OC for ME · Jul 22, 2014

Primus said:
You posted a generic website that says CITIZENS need paperwork to leave.... No s*** because they are intending to come back.

I'm.obtuse?

You throw around catch phrases like "sword point" and "violence" about not letting you leave yet you can't even show me ANYTHING that says they will arrest you. You didn't "lead " me anywhere. As you just posted (thank you) you repeatedly spout about violence and provided 1 generic website that has nothing to do with rescinding citizenship or leaving permanently. Just because you keep repeating it doesnt make it true...

Like I said I expected better.

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What would happen if I did not adhere to federal law? What would happen if I disagreed with the feds attempting to enforce the federal law?

Metaphors are useful literary tools, just cuz you don't like the ones I use does not make them appropriate when used appropriately. I suspect that your contentiousness is a result of the words I use to communicate my position more than me not linking to the specific paragraph(s) of the applicable federal law or CFR.

The proof has been provided, accept them or not, not my concern at this point.

The IRS will use violent physical force to collect Caesar's tribute (taxes). Border guards will use violent physical force to enforce Caesar's mandates (travel requirements).

I must not be required to show a ID to leave the US no matter why I choose to leave, for what purpose I choose to leave, or for how long I choose to be away. It is none of Caesar's business. I have a right to travel as I see fit.

Coming back in? I'll show my passport to get back in.

OC for ME · Jul 22, 2014

OC for ME said:
...

I must not be required to show a ID to leave the US no matter why I choose to leave, for what purpose I choose to leave, or for how long I choose to be away. It is none of Caesar's business. I have a right to travel as I see fit.

Coming back in? I'll show my passport to get back in.

By the way, what I do when not it the US (under the jurisdiction of US law) is my business. How much money I make. Yet income derived outside of the US is subject to a tax. Heck, I can't even put the money I make overseas in a overseas bank without declaring that income. That money never touched US jurisdiction other than the fact that I am a US citizen. If I don't pay, Caesar would use violent physical force to collect his tribute if I balk at his "requests" for me to pay my "fair share."

A dude died as a result of NYPD cops enforcing a alleged cigarette tax violation and the dude is reported to have resisted. Losing your life over a cigarette tax is pretty violent on the use of force scale.

OC for ME · Jul 22, 2014

Primus said:
You posted a generic website that says CITIZENS need paperwork to leave.... No s*** because they are intending to come back.

I'm.obtuse?

Pure speculation to support your anti-liberty position.

There is no US requirement to return to the US after you leave. There is no expiration date on your US citizenship, passport yes. US passports can be renewed from anywhere in the world.

You are "being obtuse", not "you are obtuse", there is a difference.

Primus · Jul 22, 2014

OC for ME said:
What would happen if I did not adhere to federal law? What would happen if I disagreed with the feds attempting to enforce the federal law?

Metaphors are useful literary tools, just cuz you don't like the ones I use does not make them appropriate when used appropriately. I suspect that your contentiousness is a result of the words I use to communicate my position more than me not linking to the specific paragraph(s) of the applicable federal law or CFR.

The proof has been provided, accept them or not, not my concern at this point.

The IRS will use violent physical force to collect Caesar's tribute (taxes). Border guards will use violent physical force to enforce Caesar's mandates (travel requirements).

I must not be required to show a ID to leave the US no matter why I choose to leave, for what purpose I choose to leave, or for how long I choose to be away. It is none of Caesar's business. I have a right to travel as I see fit.

Coming back in? I'll show my passport to get back in.

Very good questions. What would happen if you did not adhere to federal law? Better question... What law are you talking about? I have yet to see you cite any laws.

I'm still interested in seeing one though.

I'm assuming there might be a USC or something right? You mentioned a CFR maybe? Have that CFR handy?

Again... These are your claims that you have made and keep making. So I'm just looking for a cite to authority to back them up.

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OC for ME · Jul 22, 2014

OC for ME said:
http://www.dhs.gov/western-hemisphere-travel-initiative

It is against federal law, Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHIT) and Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (IRTPA) to depart the US without first showing a passport, ...

Primus said:
Very good questions. ...

You are becoming tedious at this point.

You are a cop and you want a cite as to what would happen if I violate a federal law?

PUBLIC LAW 108–458—DEC. 17, 2004. (IRTPA)

Primus · Jul 22, 2014

OC for ME said:
You are becoming tedious at this point.

You are a cop and you want a cite as to what would happen if I violate a federal law?

PUBLIC LAW 108–458—DEC. 17, 2004. (IRTPA)

I tend to be "tedious" when guys make bold claims with nothing to back it up.

Did a little digging around and I will posts the cites your looking for. I believe you made mention about having to pay to leave. That appears to be a expatriation tax. If your net worth is over 2 million or if you make over a certain amount for 5 years and a few other criteria. It comes down to they want you to fill the tax form. I've found nothing that says what happens of you don't. I found a 10,000 dollar penalty can be assessed. Good luck getting that from me in Ireland.

Form 8854 is the form.

As far as your refusing to let you leave the country claim, still don't see it. For example, crossing into Canada. Don't recall the US side stopping you. Canada does though. I may( probably) am.wrong on that.

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OC for ME · Jul 22, 2014

Primus said:
I tend to be "tedious" when guys make bold claims with nothing to back it up.

Did a little digging around and I will posts the cites your looking for. I believe you made mention about having to pay to leave. That appears to be a expatriation tax. If your net worth is over 2 million or if you make over a certain amount for 5 years and a few other criteria. It comes down to they want you to fill the tax form. I've found nothing that says what happens of you don't. I found a 10,000 dollar penalty can be assessed. Good luck getting that from me in Ireland.

Form 8854 is the form.

As far as your refusing to let you leave the country claim, still don't see it. For example, crossing into Canada. Don't recall the US side stopping you. Canada does though. I may( probably) am.wrong on that.

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Again:

The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI) requires all citizens of the United States, Canada, Mexico, and Bermuda to have a passport or other accepted document that establishes the bearer’s identity and nationality to enter or depart the United States from within the Western Hemisphere.

I'll withdraw and leave you with a win on this one.

color of law · Jul 24, 2014

OC for ME said:
http://www.dhs.gov/western-hemisphere-travel-initiative

It is against federal law, Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHIT) and Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (IRTPA) to depart the US without first showing a passport, or other "acceptable" document. If I wish to leave the US I must ID myself, without meeting this requirement I could be arrested, possibly violently, if I put up a stink. You're a cop, what would you do if a citizen put up a stink in the exercise of their rights. We do have a right to leave the US do we not?

I suspect that your "anything to get home at the end of the day" instinct will kick in.

Read the law and read the footnotes.

8 USC 1185(b) Citizens
Except as otherwise provided by the President and subject to such limitations and exceptions as the President may authorize and prescribe, it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport.

8 USC 1185(b) footnote:

Subsec. (b). Pub. L. 95–426, § 707(b), substituted provisions prohibiting departure or entry except as otherwise provided by the President and subject to such limitations and exceptions as he may authorize or prescribe, for provisions prohibiting such departure or entry after proclamation of a national emergency has been made, published and in force.

In other words, suspend the Constitution because of a State of Emergency and you ain't got no rights.....

If you don't like the laws, move & you're consenting, entering a social contract

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