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Thread: A. Barton Hinkle impugns the motives of ALL Open Carry Virginians

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    A. Barton Hinkle impugns the motives of ALL Open Carry Virginians

    Read his column carefully. He does not distinguish between long guns and handguns (which is why I am not posting this on the Carytown thread). He boldly asserts the only reason to carry openly these days is to cause moms to become nervous; after all, no one is a mind-reader.

    Accordingly, all who display their arms are misguided.

    The misguided open-carry movement
    Having the right to do a certain something doesn’t mean that certain something is always the right thing to do.

    ...

    When a man shows up at a shooting range with a Smith & Wesson .357 on his hip and a Colt AR-15 slung over his shoulder, his intent is plain. When he shows up at a Starbucks with those same weapons, his intent is far from plain.

    ...

    As Jacob Sullum pointed out not long ago in Reason, there was a time in the U.S. when “openly carrying a weapon was considered manly and honorable, while secretly carrying a weapon was considered sneaky and disreputable. … Today, by contrast, the prevailing view, at least among urbanites, seems to be that secretly carrying a weapon is less worrisome than carrying it openly.” Today people understand the aim of concealed-carry is self-defense. What’s the current aim of open-carry?

    ...

    Gun-rights advocates who delight in making suburban mothers nervous are practicing libertarian brutalism. They resemble those abortion-rights supporters who think it’s funny to wear a shirt that says, “Why did the fetus cross the road? Because they moved the dumpster.” Feeling put-upon, they have an urge to lash out at the other side, to rub the other side’s nose in the dirt and teach it a lesson. But lashing out rarely achieves much. Often such brutalism does nothing but generate resentment.

    Having a given right means never having to show consideration for how others feel about it, if you don’t want to. But advocates for individual rights should want to.
    Last edited by Repeater; 07-09-2014 at 01:33 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Read his column carefully. He does not distinguish between long guns and handguns (which is why I am not posting this on the Carytown thread). He boldly asserts the only reason to carry openly these days is to cause moms to become nervous; after all, no one is a mind-reader.

    Accordingly, all who display their arms are misguided.

    The misguided open-carry movement
    Ironic...
    Having the right to do a certain something doesn’t mean that certain something is always the right thing to do.
    He misguidedly using one enumerated right to chastise those who would exercise another enumerated right.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Feeling put-upon, they have an urge to lash out at the other side, to rub the other side’s nose in the dirt and teach it a lesson. But lashing out rarely achieves much. Often such brutalism does nothing but generate resentment.
    Taking those words out of the context of his editorial, it becomes impossible to determine which side of any of the pro-X/anti-X discussions he is referring to.

    The strange thig, getting back into the context, is that for the most part I have seen the anti-Xers lash out against X, rub the other side's nose in the dirt, and try to teach it what happns when you go up against their I-know-what's-best-for-you attitude.

    Contrast his recent screed with his thoughts on knife rights and the need to protect them: http://reason.com/archives/2014/04/0...r-knife-rights

    There’s no doubt knives are dangerous—witness the recent spate of knife slayings in China. What’s more, according to the FBI, more than 1,500 Americans were killed by knives or other cutting instruments in 2012. But that’s still just a fraction of the more than 33,000 Americans who were killed by motor vehicles in 2012, and nobody has suggested banning them—yet.
    Consistent little bugger, isn't he? What's that? Are you telling me that one of the symptoms of liberal progressivism is the inconsistency of what passes for thinking?

    Who knew? [/sarcasm]

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    I blame his mother for dropping him on his head one too many times.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    I'm going to apologize in advance for this one .....

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I blame his mother for dropping him on his head one too many times.
    how many times did david's mother drop him on his head ?
    Last edited by scouser; 07-09-2014 at 08:54 PM. Reason: like I was the only one thinking it .....

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    how many times did david's mother drop him on his head ?
    ....

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    A general question: Other than open carry, how can one inform a potential threat that they are armed without risk of brandishing?

    I'm not sure there is a risk-free way to do so, which bolsters the argument for Open Carry.

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    A general question: Other than open carry, how can one inform a potential threat that they are armed without risk of brandishing?

    I'm not sure there is a risk-free way to do so, which bolsters the argument for Open Carry.

    TFred
    You gotta ask yourself the question, is it worth your life?

    One can always "reach" where the gun is not carried though that might present other problems.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    A general question: Other than open carry, how can one inform a potential threat that they are armed without risk of brandishing?

    I'm not sure there is a risk-free way to do so, which bolsters the argument for Open Carry.

    TFred
    One could just tell them, with good command language. I armed stay away, I prepared to defend myself.

    Or simple a STAY BACK

    Good verbal commands not only inform the potential attacker your aware but alerts witnesses that your in danger.

    If it is legal to open carry why would it be brandishing to exposé your firearm with out drawing it?

    One second your CCW next your open carrying.

    There are to many variables in each situation to know or say what well work or not.

    The mentally ill and those who are intoxicated on drugs or alcohol some times just don't pay attention or care.

    Where it is legal defensive display can be very effective in stopping an attack with out shooting some one.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 07-10-2014 at 06:44 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    One could just tell them, with good command language. I armed stay away, I prepared to defend myself.

    That's a pretty good case of verbal assault (a crime which we all know know does not exist but tell that to the cop/magistrate and see where you end up.

    Or simple a STAY BACK

    Works, but does not answer the question.

    Good verbal commands not only inform the potential attacker your aware but alerts witnesses that your in danger.

    If it is legal to open carry why would it be brandishing to exposé your firearm with out drawing it?

    One second your CCW next your open carrying.

    Going from concealed to the "ostentatious display" of your firearm is pretty much word for word the crime of brandishing.

    There are to many variables in each situation to know or say what well work or not.

    The mentally ill and those who are intoxicated on drugs or alcohol some times just don't pay attention or care.

    Where it is legal defensive display can be very effective in stopping an attack with out shooting some one.
    Might this be yet another good and proper time to suggest that a "defensive display of firearm" law be added to the Code of Virginia? There are several states that have such laws - it is a matter of a) copying/pasting and editing to conform to the LIS Style Book (the easy part), and b) getting someone to sponsor the bill.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Might this be yet another good and proper time to suggest that a "defensive display of firearm" law be added to the Code of Virginia? There are several states that have such laws - it is a matter of a) copying/pasting and editing to conform to the LIS Style Book (the easy part), and b) getting someone to sponsor the bill.

    stay safe.
    That is something that has been bantered about several times. Believe that User has made some comment about it.

    Doubt though that such would make it through both houses with a veto proof majority and we all know what to expect from Governor McAwful.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That is something that has been bantered about several times. Believe that User has made some comment about it.

    Doubt though that such would make it through both houses with a veto proof majority and we all know what to expect from Governor McAwful.
    Is it worth the effort and political cost, or do we wait for a more opportune time?

    Remember, right now there is no alternative - if you pull it you must shoot it, or the reason for pulling it did not meet the legal requirement of self defense. Sell this as a way to protect at least some of those young children who are just about to turn their lives around, if just given yet another second chance.

    ETA: Wonder how all the anti-gunners would react to being called out as wanting folks to be killed when the defensive display of firearms act would provide a way to prevent needless killings?

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 07-10-2014 at 08:28 AM.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    how many times did david's mother drop him on his head ?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    This really doesn't answer your question TFred but I don't carry a gun to frighten or even warn potential attackers. If I pull it, one of us isn't leaving there on our own power but until then, the gun gets no mention at all.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This really doesn't answer your question TFred but I don't carry a gun to frighten or even warn potential attackers. If I pull it, one of us isn't leaving there on our own power but until then, the gun gets no mention at all.
    Walking tall.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    No discussion of 'Permission'

    Sadly, for someone so apparently aligned with libertarian principles, it does not seem to occur to Hinkle that maybe, just maybe, some who carry openly do so because they don't need anyone's permission.

    If Barton feels so strongly about the alleged virtue of concealed carry, perhaps he should advocate for Constitutional Carry.

    Virginia: "Not Yet Available."

    Does Hinkle even care?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Sadly, for someone so apparently aligned with libertarian principles, it does not seem to occur to Hinkle that maybe, just maybe, some who carry openly do so because they don't need anyone's permission.

    If Barton feels so strongly about the alleged virtue of concealed carry, perhaps he should advocate for Constitutional Carry.

    Virginia: "Not Yet Available."

    Does Hinkle even care?
    Betcha the box is empty.



    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-10-2014 at 12:25 PM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Betcha the box is empty.



    Gosh, I wonder what's concealed in that package?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Gosh, I wonder what's concealed in that package?
    But it is openly carried
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    But it is openly carried
    Do not judge a package by its cover.

    As for the Delivery Person, Ewwwww.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    One could just tell them, with good command language. I armed stay away, I prepared to defend myself.

    Or simple a STAY BACK

    Good verbal commands not only inform the potential attacker your aware but alerts witnesses that your in danger.

    If it is legal to open carry why would it be brandishing to exposé your firearm with out drawing it?

    One second your CCW next your open carrying.

    There are to many variables in each situation to know or say what well work or not.

    The mentally ill and those who are intoxicated on drugs or alcohol some times just don't pay attention or care.

    Where it is legal defensive display can be very effective in stopping an attack with out shooting some one.
    Doesn't a person have to see an attacker before issuing a notification?

    .......because crooks never sneak up on unsuspecting victims, right?

    They also must wear signs announcing they are crooks. They would never pass themselves off as harmless and well intentioned.

    Better just notify everyone approaching you so that you can inform those crooks who are attempting to sucker punch you before they strike out of the blue.

    I can see the trip down the grocery store aisle......

    "I'm armed. Stay away. I'm prepared to defend myself."

    "I'm armed. Stay away. I'm prepared to defend myself."

    "I'm armed. Stay away. I'm prepared to defend myself."

    "I'm armed. Stay away. I'm prepared to defend myself."

    .......and on, to the next aisle.

    Or, one could simply open carry and let their visible sidearm inform sneaky and disguised criminals that one is prepared to defend themselves.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    It's OK, I impugn A. Barton Hinkle.

    The Coen brothers film was better, anyway.

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    Regular Member speed41ae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    if you pull it you must shoot it
    I agree with you, BUT what if someone punches you and runs away as you are drawing? My understanding is that you cannot shoot someone that is no longer a threat.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speed41ae View Post
    I agree with you, BUT what if someone punches you and runs away as you are drawing? My understanding is that you cannot shoot someone that is no longer a threat.
    A punch, unless somehow potentially deadly, would not in and of itself justify use of deadly force.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speed41ae View Post
    I agree with you, BUT what if someone punches you and runs away as you are drawing? My understanding is that you cannot shoot someone that is no longer a threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    A punch, unless somehow potentially deadly, would not in and of itself justify use of deadly force.
    Even a potentially deadly punch (which has nothing to do with the law's focus on my reasonable apprehension of an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm) has nothing to do with the fact that the puncher, now fleeing, no longer presents such a threat.

    Let's see if anybody can come up with a better "example". Something like two or three scruffy-looking guys following a lone female into a parking garage? Or the apparently bat-s**t crazy guy waving his sign-on-a-stick like a baseball bat as he comes along the sidewalk (but still outside the mythically magic 21-foot "circle of danger")?

    Bueller? Anybody?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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