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Thread: Your Problem With Guns or Gays Is Not Political

  1. #1
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Your Problem With Guns or Gays Is Not Political

    A well written article by a friend of mine. I don't just like it because I am the "Rob" in the article.....

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robin-...b_5571755.html

    FUQ- "Last month I did something I'd done only once before: I went to a range and shot some guns. Lots of guns. All shapes, ages and sizes.
    This is a very strange thing to do for a guy born British. Guns feature nowhere in British culture. "
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  2. #2
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Originally I was going to take Robin hiking and shoot in my spot. I decided instead to ask John for his expertise in training new shooters, I think I made the right choice.

    Much kudos to MSGLaigaie, for helping make this happen and all his hard work in our county in promoting OC and rights.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Excellent article. Well written and thoughtful.

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    Hi SVG

    A good article.

    The term " Ethnocentrism' comes to mind.
    The Belief that ones own cultural group is superior,that one's own cultural beliefs (etc) is normal and others are abnormal.
    ( See William G.Sumner) "FOLKWAYS"----

    Lack of education, lack of reading, cultural bias, personal prejudices, along with our associations, all form the basis for ethnocentrism. A local example would be OC v CC carry, or hand gun v long gun.

    Rob aka, SVG, thank you for sharing.

    My .02

    Best regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHunter View Post
    Agreed!
    Isn't it amazing how a little "hands-on" experience can open somebody's eyes (and attitudes)!
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Hi SVG

    A good article.

    The term " Ethnocentrism' comes to mind.
    The Belief that ones own cultural group is superior,that one's own cultural beliefs (etc) is normal and others are abnormal.
    ( See William G.Sumner) "FOLKWAYS"----

    Lack of education, lack of reading, cultural bias, personal prejudices, along with our associations, all form the basis for ethnocentrism. A local example would be OC v CC carry, or hand gun v long gun.

    Rob aka, SVG, thank you for sharing.

    My .02

    Best regards

    CCJ
    Yep. At Pride in Bellingham yesterday we again had a huge warm welcome. I didn't have that term handy but now I will! Although that was the discussion by many, how association and education breaks down prejudices and fear.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I'll be a dissenter if you will.

    If a citizen votes to limit liberty there can be no meeting somewhere in the middle. There is no tolerance of limiting the LGBT community's rights/liberty and there should be none. Yet limiting guns and gun rights is OK.

    It works both ways. People who favor more gun regulation are not actually motivated by a desire to take away your liberty. ...
    It certainly does not work both ways, and of course they are. No discussing the various viewpoints of the LGBT issue, that is considered intolerant, bigoted. But a discussion of the various viewpoints regarding gun ownership and the exercise of the right is OK, considered rational, tolerance on display.....pfft!! Anyone who claims that they did not know that regulating guns, via their vote, is not limiting their fellow citizen's liberty is nothing but a liberal trying to get you to buy him his next beer.

    This is a very strange thing to do for a guy born British. Guns feature nowhere in British culture.
    And whose fault is that. The British commoner long ago abdicated their rights to the crown.

    Anyway, glad ya had fun at the range.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Anytime you can get someone to the range and they enjoy it; it is a successful day!! Poor Brit!

    As to the comparison of LGBT vs 2A rights argument....I'll leave it up to another thread.
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
    ~Mark Twain

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I'll be a dissenter if you will.

    If a citizen votes to limit liberty there can be no meeting somewhere in the middle. There is no tolerance of limiting the LGBT community's rights/liberty and there should be none. Yet limiting guns and gun rights is OK.

    It certainly does not work both ways, and of course they are. No discussing the various viewpoints of the LGBT issue, that is considered intolerant, bigoted. But a discussion of the various viewpoints regarding gun ownership and the exercise of the right is OK, considered rational, tolerance on display.....pfft!! Anyone who claims that they did not know that regulating guns, via their vote, is not limiting their fellow citizen's liberty is nothing but a liberal trying to get you to buy him his next beer.

    And whose fault is that. The British commoner long ago abdicated their rights to the crown.

    Anyway, glad ya had fun at the range.
    I think what he is saying is most people who vote to limit rights don't see it that way.

    From personal conversations with Robin he is absolutely open to discussing issues with the LGBT too.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  9. #9
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I think what he is saying is most people who vote to limit rights don't see it that way.
    Rationalizing their vote is what he is talking about. Folks do it all the time. "I know this is wrong, voting to limit liberty (guns), but I have a fundamental disagreement where guns are concerned." This is why he misses the mark, his cultural background.

    He understands, or so he says. But, how does he vote! That is the only metric that matters.

    "I know this is wrong, voting to limit liberty (guns freedom of speech/press), but I have a fundamental disagreement where guns freedom of speech/press are concerned."

    "I know this is wrong, voting to limit liberty (guns gay marriage), but I have a fundamental disagreement where guns gay marriage are concerned."

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    From personal conversations with Robin he is absolutely open to discussing issues with the LGBT too.
    He is not the LGBT community. The "tolerant left," the LGBT crowd to be specific in this case, are very far afield of any tolerance. Heck, the LGBT community will use the media to persecute those who hold a different viewpoint. Ask Brendan Eich if a rational conversation can be held with the LGBT community.

    We 2A supporters, OCers specifically, on the other hand, are intolerant if we do not engage in the intolerant lefts' specious, false premise laden discussions.

    You know him, I do not. I only have his printed words to form a opinion of him. Until he divorces himself from making comparisons, guns and LGBT community, then he may understand that there is liberty for all or there is liberty for none. No comparisons are needed.

    Liberty is not a al carte proposition.....liberty is too simple. I'm not so sure he gets that.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    then he may understand that there is liberty for all or there is liberty for none. No comparisons are needed.

    Liberty is not a al carte proposition.....liberty is too simple..
    This is Truth!
    There was a bit of drama over this years picnic. Someone (occupy bellingham) got in the papers and complained about OC Whatcom County would be at "their" picnic and that we "forced" our way into the Pride celebration. None of it was true and after the "gay" community defended us enmasse it was retracted and a rep from occupy actually apologized to SVG.
    Rob and I were in the park for our picnic when we ran into a member of the Pride group. She looked at us and said, : Oh it's YOU people." I quickly, but politely replied, " They used to say that when you came into the room." She had nothing to say.

    When we were exposing the writer to weaponry I chose the Enfield and told him, "This weapon is the reason you speak english and not german." It gave him a historical anchor point. Very positive.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 07-15-2014 at 10:31 AM. Reason: spegling
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  11. #11
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    This is Truth!
    There was a bit of drama over this years picnic. Someone (occupy bellingham) got in the papers and complained about OC Whatcom County would be at "their" picnic and that we "forced" our way into the Pride celebration. None of it was true and after the "gay" community defended us enmasse it was retracted and a rep from occupy actually apologized to SVG.
    Rob and I were in the park for our picnic when we ran into a member of the Pride group. She looked at us and said, : Oh it's YOU people." I quickly, but politely replied, " They used to say that when you came into the room." She had nothing to say.

    When we were exposing the writer to weaponry I chose the Enfield and told him, "This weapon is the reason you speak english and not german." It gave him a historical anchor point. Very positive.
    No doubt that he was exposed to important information. How he uses that info remains a mystery to me. Again, how does he vote.

    Example: A liberal with a gun, defending our 2A right, yet votes for the likes of Pelousy, Boxer, Schummer, Obama.

    I'm still trying to understand why he inserted the LGBT stuff into a story that shows him shooting a rifle.....hmm, very suspicious I am.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  12. #12
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    No doubt that he was exposed to important information. How he uses that info remains a mystery to me. Again, how does he vote.

    Example: A liberal with a gun, defending our 2A right, yet votes for the likes of Pelousy, Boxer, Schummer, Obama.

    I'm still trying to understand why he inserted the LGBT stuff into a story that shows him shooting a rifle.....hmm, very suspicious I am.
    Because he is showing what I have said for years, and one many like me can relate to. I used to be bigoted toward the gay community, I was taught religiously it was wrong. I never hated them though, I developed a as long as they keep it away from me attitude, why should I care. Then as I got older and met gay people I realized many are good people and my attitude was wrong. I also learned that just because someone is gay doesn't mean they don't have so many other things in common with me and I ended up having some great gay friends.

    The same is with some who are culturally afraid/dislike guns. Association and education destroys fear and bigotry.

    If you worried he'd vote for welfare state, nope. For more government in any way probably not. He and I differ on borders I am more of an open border guy he is more of a monitored border guy. etc.

    Is it for everyone no, but he is for liberty for all although I would say he does as he hints in his article often fall on the conservative side of issues.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 07-16-2014 at 10:10 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    As a gay gun owner...I did not fully read this topic...im sorry

    <3

  14. #14
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45 Fan View Post
    As a gay gun owner...I did not fully read this topic...im sorry

    <3
    As a gay gun owner, you may enjoy the article.

    Our local OC group went to our local Pride event last weekend with tremendous success and a warm welcome by most. Except for a few straight folks who seemed to want to save gay folks from guns.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    After hearing about the anti gun rhetoric from the "occupy b'ham" SVG and I were in the park attending the Fourth Annual Whatcom County OC picnic. The Pride group was holding a picnic also in another part of the park. Rob and I had to walk thru them to get to the parking lot when we came upon a young lady. She looked at us both(well armed) and said..."Oh, it's YOU people." I quickly replied, "That is what they used to say when YOU came in the room." It gave her a much better perspective. They were pariahs, now we are the pariahs. People will find a reason to hate, it's easy.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  16. #16
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    After hearing about the anti gun rhetoric from the "occupy b'ham" SVG and I were in the park attending the Fourth Annual Whatcom County OC picnic. The Pride group was holding a picnic also in another part of the park. Rob and I had to walk thru them to get to the parking lot when we came upon a young lady. She looked at us both(well armed) and said..."Oh, it's YOU people." I quickly replied, "That is what they used to say when YOU came in the room." It gave her a much better perspective. They were pariahs, now we are the pariahs. People will find a reason to hate, it's easy.
    She ended up supporting us the next day at the booth!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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