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Thread: Cincinnati's Washington park One bad cop one good one.

  1. #1
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    Cincinnati's Washington park One bad cop one good one.

    This happened this pass weekend.
    I know I'm a bad cameraman
    Cincinnati PD is petty good about OC.
    I have had Cincinnati PD shack my hand and say most of them support 2A.
    This is my 1st negative contact.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fydqr-k1Ex4

    I will try to go back this weekend and see if things are different.


    Mike

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Greetings from sunny, dry Arizona, ps1mhd!

    Looks like only the last LEO actually knew the law; kudos to him (he's proof that the ENTIRE barrel isn't rotten). Sad to see it was only until the very FINAL minute of your video that so-called "law-enforcement" actually enforced the law and not their own opinions.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Thanks for sharing.

    While this ending turned out ok, it is not always the ending that counts. Consider that your time was wasted, while 3 government agents were being compensated also with having to be treated like a criminal for simply exercising a natural right to defend yourself.

    I would send a bill to the city Of Cinn for the wasting of your valuable time. Time is money.

    Good overall job Sir!

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    cop basically asked you to disarm.....

    What does the 2nd amend mean if they can do that?

    Handled well.

    I'll bet that that security guard is the only one violating the law ... read up on the security guard laws and regulations and you'll likely find out that I'm correct. If so inclined.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I suspect that the "teachable moment" was a waste of time. There is knowing and then wanting to know, the Ole Sarge just don't want to know. File a formal complaint.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps1mhd View Post
    This happened this pass weekend.
    I know I'm a bad cameraman
    Cincinnati PD is petty good about OC.
    I have had Cincinnati PD shack my hand and say most of them support 2A.
    This is my 1st negative contact.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fydqr-k1Ex4

    I will try to go back this weekend and see if things are different...
    Hmmm. What happened before the video started? Was it contentious? How were you dressed? The Sgt indicated that alarm was being caused. Did the "security" guy speak to you about that?

    I've had a number of interactions with CPD, the last one resulting in this (#3): http://tinyurl.com/kpza6tu

    I'd love to talk to you, and/or maybe visit that park with you this weekend. Please PM me.
    Last edited by BB62; 07-15-2014 at 09:59 AM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Private businesses or property owners may prohibit all firearms on their property. They may post signs prohibiting firearms or they may order a person to leave for such behavior. Criminal Trespass is the appropriate charge if a person is on private property in violation of such a prohibition.
    Do signs, of any type, have the weight of law in OH? The wording seems a wee bit troubling.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Hmmm. What happened before the video started? Was it contentious? How were you dressed? The Sgt indicated that alarm was being caused. Did the "security" guy speak to you about that?

    I've had a number of interactions with CPD, the last one resulting in this (#3): http://tinyurl.com/kpza6tu

    I'd love to talk to you, and/or maybe visit that park with you this weekend. Please PM me.
    Ditto!!!!

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Do signs, of any type, have the weight of law in OH? The wording seems a wee bit troubling.
    It depends on where one is being prohibited from. In parking lots, one must be taken to court, in a privately owned establishment the signs DO carry the weight of law - IF one knowingly ignores a conspicuous posting.

    The incident described took place in a City of Cincinnati park and as such: 1) there is no carry prohibition in the outdoor portion, and 2) any signage referencing the outdoor portion wouldn't apply.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    It depends on where one is being prohibited from. In parking lots, one must be taken to court, in a privately owned establishment the signs DO carry the weight of law - IF one knowingly ignores a conspicuous posting.

    The incident described took place in a City of Cincinnati park and as such: 1) there is no carry prohibition in the outdoor portion, and 2) any signage referencing the outdoor portion wouldn't apply.
    Thanks. The wording is accurate in this regard it seems.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Hmmm. What happened before the video started? Was it contentious? How were you dressed? The Sgt indicated that alarm was being caused. Did the "security" guy speak to you about that?

    I've had a number of interactions with CPD, the last one resulting in this (#3): http://tinyurl.com/kpza6tu

    I'd love to talk to you, and/or maybe visit that park with you this weekend. Please PM me.
    It is important to note, open carry by itself also would not support a charge of Disorderly Conduct or Inducing Panic.
    There must be additional facts to support these offenses. If someone is lawfully carrying a firearm—and doing nothing else—
    the fact that it causes alarm to others does not support a charge.
    from link ^^

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    Videos like this keep my circulation stirred up. Not to unhealthy levels, mind you, just invigorated enough to take a big OC walk with friends. Very well played, ps1mhd.

    I find it very, very, very hard to believe that the sergeant knew neither the actual laws, or at about least the memo from their police chief two years ago reminding all personnel of the legal status of open carry. He may not have been a sergeant then but he surely to hell was on the department! If the sarge is that dumb in one area of law I have to think he's lacking in other aspects of how he does his job, to say the least.

    And I'm saying that as someone who also works in a public sector civil service job nearby, and know how things work. Also, I once started what turned out to be an avalanche of complaints about a CPD officer that did eventually lead to his termination...and he didn't get rehired on appeal, either. Point being, from my initial run-in with him until his firing three years or so later, I was watching the whole process as closely as possible.

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    What happened before the video started? I had been walking around for about 15-20 min. Nothing happen.
    I walked up to the security officer and asked about the dog park. His answer was to start talking about the 45
    that's when I started filming. He had called for the police before I went up to him.
    LOE may of been working a detail there and not on duty. How were you dressed? Blue jeans green(?) pocketed
    Tee shirt. No alarm no one running or screaming gun. Most didn't even notice that I could tell.
    Did the "security" guy speak to you about that? Most of what he said is on film as soon as he started talking about my 45 I started filming.

    Will PM later.

    Mike

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps1mhd View Post
    What happened before the video started? I had been walking around for about 15-20 min. Nothing happen.
    I walked up to the security officer and asked about the dog park. His answer was to start talking about the 45
    that's when I started filming. He had called for the police before I went up to him.
    LOE may of been working a detail there and not on duty. How were you dressed? Blue jeans green(?) pocketed
    Tee shirt. No alarm no one running or screaming gun. Most didn't even notice that I could tell.
    Did the "security" guy speak to you about that? Most of what he said is on film as soon as he started talking about my 45 I started filming...
    Thanks for the detail.

    I've just returned from an errand that took me past downtown so I stopped by Washington Park, OCing of course. WOW! What a beautiful place! Kids play areas, various water columns that kids can play in, plenty of trees with shade. Cool!

    I stopped by in order to talk to the "security" guy about a comment he made, something like "You're setting a bad example here!" (with an openly carried gun). I'm an instructor, and teach a fair amount of black students, and over the years a common theme has been that they don't like their friends and family to know that they own a gun. Guns, at least among some of my students, are thought of like a scourge - so I just wanted to talk with Mr. Security about the reasons behind his obviously heartfelt comment.

    As I walked by the restroom area I noticed two yellow shirted males with "Operations" printed on the back. I stopped to ask them if they had heard about the employee on YouTube, they said "no" and seemed surprised, The more I told them about it, including having one of them look up the video via OCDO, the more they had to say. I believe the "security" guy works in the garage, that he works weekends, and that he may be working tomorrow. The most laughable moment was when I said that the Sgt didn't know the law, but his subordinates did. One of the employees (there were three employees and another fellow at this point) said "How did he get to be a Sergeant then?" It was all I could do not to burst out laughing.

    Lots of questions were asked and answered, I shook hands with all of them, and departed.

    I will follow up on the matter because this is the second time, after talking to the Chief a few months ago, that officers have demonstrated ignorance of the law, or an unwillingness to engage in conversation about open carry. It won't be a fire and brimstone communication, but more of a "There are officers and leadership who either a) don't know the law, or b) have an unnecessarily negative view of open carry/open carriers, so let's start a dialogue".

    I'm glad you've got the video ps1mhd, and I look forward to talking with you.

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    At 30 seconds into the video, I believe the security guy identifies himself as Tyrone Clay, his last name matching what the employees told me.

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    You handled yourself well. Thanks for sharing.

    The cop at the end handled the situation well also. The only thing I did not like is when he said something in the line of you where just out to get them on youtube. Looks to me as you where just out exercising your right and was forced into an unwanted detainment with a LEO that was very poorly trained or just decided to ignore his training.

    Sorry to hear you had a bad experience but thank you for sharing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    At 30 seconds into the video, I believe the security guy identifies himself as Tyrone Clay, his last name matching what the employees told me.
    We have security guards in some state bldg running entryways where they want people to ID and sign in ... I just walk past them ... never had one stop me yet.

  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Short of just walking away from the sergeant, this was handled very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Good job, Mike! Just a few questions though.

    What was the rank of the last LEO? Was he a shift supervisor? How did he over rule a Sergeant? Did you complain to him about the lack of knowledge on the part of the Sergeant and the illegal detention?
    Did you go back into the park?
    After the good cop let you go, did the Sergeant say anything else, like, "I didn't know he could do that." or "When did they change the law?" or "How come you are letting him go?" or, my very favorite; "Charge him with something!".
    Does the security guy now know that OC is legal in the park, or does he think you were arrested?
    How does a person "investigate" without knowing what crime they are investigating? That's
    not investigation. That's fishing.

    Didn't see any rank. I think the Sgt was on a detail not on duty.
    You saw the vid what happen after I left ??? What the guard knows now???
    I may see him again this weekend.
    Most of what you ask I have no way of knowing.


    Mike

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    That sergeant worked for me when he was a young patrolman and I was his lieutenant.

    I am VERY disappointed. I thought he knew better.

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    P.S.

    Reasonable articulable suspicion to make a Terry Stop did NOT exist in this case. You were detained illegally. I encourage you to make an official complaint.

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    If ps1mhd chooses to make a formal complaint, I would be happy to assist him in any way.

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    I sent the mayor and chief an email with a link to both the video AND the open carry memo ("Staff Notes" July, 2012 - stored on THEIR server).

    I suggested that, at a minimum, all officers should get that memo again.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    I hate my camera!
    I went back up there Sunday after about a half hour security Clay told me
    he had called police again and for me to stay around so of course I did as he said
    Every time I passed him walking around I heard him telling people I was just trying to prove my manhood
    Two marked units were there talking with each other and then drove away. After about 10 min. a Sgt. showed up and said I was OK and that he was going to talk with park security and tell them the law on OC. They talked for maybe 10 min. One of them didn't look happy you can guess which one. As that was going on I talked with 3 groups of people about OC and the law.
    When I got home I found that my camera stopped after 28 minutes
    I hate my camera! I had my audio recorder on but have not checked it yet. Listening to 60+ minutes of mostly
    me walking is boring.


    Mike

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Pictures at eleven......

    Some security guards just should not be a security guard.

    Good job Mike.

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