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Thread: Hat baseball cap "SPY" camera needed

  1. #1
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    Hat baseball cap "SPY" camera needed

    I have a hard time filming and talking with LEOs at the same time.
    I am looking for a good hat-cap camera that has good sound at a good price.
    The reviews on youtube of the ones on ebay are not good.
    I have a pen cam it sucks. Hard to use a hand-held when your hand cuffed
    Been there-done that-got the vid.

    Mike

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    http://www.dhgate.com/product/multif...ml#gp-1-1|null

    http://www.amazon.com/Covert-Spy-Hid.../dp/B0046U3JLC

    Don't find that any of the pricer models are any better than the cheap ones - nothing will beat a GoPro, but why risk one of them on a stop gone south?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Always something to consider: anything you record could be used against you in court ...

    I know people want to "tell their story" ... but really, why make it easier to establish facts. I have won many summary judgments and motions to acquit simply due to sloppy testimony being extracted from state lawyers (they are busy too & make mistakes at trial) regarding getting the required elements of a crime, infraction, or other offense on the record.

    If you get arrested THEY will have this evidence readily available, not you. And they may say that they are not going to use the evidence at trial, so you cannot get it.

    I can see the usefulness of these devices in limited circumstances.

    Just a word of warning .. from experience.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Always something to consider: anything you record could be used against you in court ...

    I know people want to "tell their story" ... but really, why make it easier to establish facts. I have won many summary judgments and motions to acquit simply due to sloppy testimony being extracted from state lawyers (they are busy too & make mistakes at trial) regarding getting the required elements of a crime, infraction, or other offense on the record.

    If you get arrested THEY will have this evidence readily available, not you. And they may say that they are not going to use the evidence at trial, so you cannot get it.

    I can see the usefulness of these devices in limited circumstances.

    Just a word of warning .. from experience.
    Are you saying that because the prosecution decides not to use some bit of evidence (a recording) to prosecute the defense is barred from using that same bit of evidence to defend?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  5. #5
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    States may vary, and I could be wrong, but is not a requirement that the state must provide all the evidence they have including exculpatory evidence? I mean, the state is the one doing the investigating and the collecting of "facts," even the facts that could torpedo their start witness' credibility, a thug cop.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Are you saying that because the prosecution decides not to use some bit of evidence (a recording) to prosecute the defense is barred from using that same bit of evidence to defend?
    It very well could be. Odd that a person who feels he may be arrested (rightly or wrongly) would be nice enough to collect evidence for the opposing side.

    Who would have this evidence in their control? When arrested...not the person who collected it. Not a good position to be in....

    I record face to face conversations occasionally (and you can in my state w/o the others' permission, even in private) when I know that the contact would never result in an immediate arrest. Then I have the record and decide to enter it into evidence if I want to.

    And there is, of course, the old "recording was lost/damaged" possibility.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJVewWbeBiY

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  7. #7
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut

    Are you saying that because the prosecution decides not to use some bit of evidence (a recording) to prosecute the defense is barred from using that same bit of evidence to defend?
    It very well could be. Odd that a person who feels he may be arrested (rightly or wrongly) would be nice enough to collect evidence for the opposing side.

    Who would have this evidence in their control? When arrested...not the person who collected it. Not a good position to be in....

    I record face to face conversations occasionally (and you can in my state w/o the others' permission, even in private) when I know that the contact would never result in an immediate arrest. Then I have the record and decide to enter it into evidence if I want to.

    And there is, of course, the old "recording was lost/damaged" possibility.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJVewWbeBiY

    High Hopes ^^

    Remember: every movie has critics who say a movie was great and others, seeing the same movie, says it sucked.
    Please provide cites and/or links to law or case law to support the part of your reply I put in bold

    Please understand I'm not trying to be a jerk ... I would just like to see where it is legally possible for the prosecution to decide what evidence the defense is not allowed to present in defense of the accused.

    Especially, as you said below, based upon the premise that because the prosecution doesn't want to use it then the defense can't either.

    Originally Posted by davidmcbeth


    -snip-
    If you get arrested THEY will have this evidence readily available, not you. And they may say that they are not going to use the evidence at trial, so you cannot get it.
    -snip-
    Last edited by Bikenut; 07-15-2014 at 01:15 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Please provide cites and/or links to law or case law to support the part of your reply I put in bold

    Please understand I'm not trying to be a jerk ... I would just like to see where it is legally possible for the prosecution to decide what evidence the defense is not allowed to present in defense of the accused.

    Especially, as you said below, based upon the premise that because the prosecution doesn't want to use it then the defense can't either.
    Rules of evidence is too broad and case specific to answer your query unfortunately.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Rules of evidence is too broad and case specific to answer your query unfortunately.
    Ummm..... don't both defense and prosecution have the opportunity to challenge any evidence presented in discovery and it is the judge who decides what will be allowed in and what won't?

    I would be astonished if the prosecution gets to decide what evidence the defense is not allowed to present to substantiate the client's innocence!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Ummm..... don't both defense and prosecution have the opportunity to challenge any evidence presented in discovery and it is the judge who decides what will be allowed in and what won't?

    I would be astonished if the prosecution gets to decide what evidence the defense is not allowed to present to substantiate the client's innocence!
    Discovery documents/records obtained are not "evidence". Evidence is that which is introduced and accepted by a court at trial.

    You can be astonished but its the way it is in many places. Judges do not like discovery issues & in state court, many times you will not get what you should get.

    And in discovery, you can generally only get things that are or lead to possible evidence; if the video will not be introduced by the state many courts have said its not discoverable.

    The judge does not get to decide what is discoverable or not in many cases. The prosecution does ... and if the video in his possession helps your case you can be sure he will not willingly give it to the defendant ~ they are measured by their victories, not on their ethics.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Discovery documents/records obtained are not "evidence". Evidence is that which is introduced and accepted by a court at trial.

    You can be astonished but its the way it is in many places. Judges do not like discovery issues & in state court, many times you will not get what you should get.

    And in discovery, you can generally only get things that are or lead to possible evidence; if the video will not be introduced by the state many courts have said its not discoverable.

    The judge does not get to decide what is discoverable or not in many cases. The prosecution does ... and if the video in his possession helps your case you can be sure he will not willingly give it to the defendant ~ they are measured by their victories, not on their ethics.
    So you are saying that the prosecution can exclude evidence that would prove the defendant's innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt just so the prosecution can "win" the case?

    Oh... and how would the prosecution be in possession of the recording anyway? If they seize it as "evidence" then wouldn't the defense also have access to it?

    Please understand I am asking in a sincere effort to understand how the prosecution could simply withhold evidence that would bolster the defense's case or even prove the defendant innocent. Because if what you are saying is true the prosecution gets to write it's own version of the truth by withholding the actual truth and no one has a snowball's chance in hell of ever being acquitted.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  12. #12
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    TITLE Hat baseball cap "SPY" camera needed
    Can we stay on subject?

    Mike

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps1mhd View Post
    TITLE Hat baseball cap "SPY" camera needed
    Can we stay on subject?

    Mike
    Without being a jerk for such is not my intention....from a quick search on bing...

    http://www.bing.com/search?q=basebal...ZI&form=MOZSBR

    And what would be the point of having such a hat if the prosecution can just withhold the recording? Wouldn't the side discussion be of interest to anyone contemplating using such an item?
    Last edited by Bikenut; 07-15-2014 at 05:10 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ps1mhd

    TITLE Hat baseball cap "SPY" camera needed
    Can we stay on subject?

    Mike
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Without being a jerk for such is not my intention....from a quick search on bing...

    http://www.bing.com/search?q=basebal...ZI&form=MOZSBR

    And what would be the point of having such a hidden camera if the prosecution can just withhold the recording? Wouldn't the side discussion be of interest to anyone contemplating using such an item?
    Indeed would seem so, that is why we left it.

    Insofar as the cap spy camera, there are a quantity of them out there within easy reach - examples were given.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    come on honey, I always wear my hat ! its not weird .... hahahaha

  16. #16
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    According to an attorney I asked on a different forum.... and please bear in mind the question was asked in a Michigan specific forum so the presumption is the attorney is addressing how things are in Michigan.... not how things are in any other State.

    Go to post #9 for the actual wording of his reply...

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...37#post2434437

    in which he explained that because of the rules of ethics a prosecutor has a duty to turn over any exculpatory evidence even if they are not asked for it. Not turning over such evidence would be misconduct.

    I'm guessing (I'm not an attorney) that proven misconduct on the part of a prosecutor would be/could be grounds for a mistrial or even overturning a conviction?

    And I am grateful for those attorneys who offer their advice over the internet.... for free. Especially since knowing the law, and getting paid for that knowledge, is their livelihood.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 07-17-2014 at 07:14 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Always something to consider: anything you record could be used against you in court ...

    I know people want to "tell their story" ... but really, why make it easier to establish facts. I have won many summary judgments and motions to acquit simply due to sloppy testimony being extracted from state lawyers (they are busy too & make mistakes at trial) regarding getting the required elements of a crime, infraction, or other offense on the record.

    If you get arrested THEY will have this evidence readily available, not you. And they may say that they are not going to use the evidence at trial, so you cannot get it.

    I can see the usefulness of these devices in limited circumstances.

    Just a word of warning .. from experience.
    So the rules of discovery just do not exist? Or the federal court rulings that have come down from cases where the prosecution has intentionally withheld evidence - especially evidence that might have been exculpatory?

    davidmcbeth - please cite what ground the prosecution would stand on to be able to do what you suggest.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    So the rules of discovery just do not exist? Or the federal court rulings that have come down from cases where the prosecution has intentionally withheld evidence - especially evidence that might have been exculpatory?

    davidmcbeth - please cite what ground the prosecution would stand on to be able to do what you suggest.

    stay safe.
    Rules on discovery in state v. fed courts are different; but you are correct, the feds are more broad and a federal judge will not play the discovery game like state court judges will.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Here is but one example where the prosecutor withheld evidence in a state court.

    A Henrico Circuit Court judge threw out the convictions in a high-profile rape case Wednesday, ordering a new trial because of evidence withheld from the defense.
    http://www.nbc12.com/story/26038857/driton

    If one or the other had a spy camera hat, the result might have been different
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    It's called Brady material. The term comes from the U.S. Supreme Court case, Brady v. Maryland, in which the Supreme Court ruled that suppression by the prosecution of evidence favorable to a defendant who has requested it violates due process.

    Now, back to regular programing.

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    A spy camera ball cap would not be needed if cops and prosecutors were not the only source of "evidence." Cops and prosecutors investigating misconduct on the part of cops and prosecutors is the problem.

    Any allegation of cop/prosecutor/judge misconduct must be investigated by a outside entity. They should be able to be railroaded just as they attempt to railroad the mundanes they have "sworn to protect."

    Fox guarding the hen house...pfft.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Here is but one example where the prosecutor withheld evidence in a state court.

    A Henrico Circuit Court judge threw out the convictions in a high-profile rape case Wednesday, ordering a new trial because of evidence withheld from the defense.
    http://www.nbc12.com/story/26038857/driton

    If one or the other had a spy camera hat, the result might have been different
    See? The state has nothing to lose. What did they get? A new trial. Big whoop.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    Here is but one example where the prosecutor withheld evidence in a state court.

    A Henrico Circuit Court judge threw out the convictions in a high-profile rape case Wednesday, ordering a new trial because of evidence withheld from the defense.
    http://www.nbc12.com/story/26038857/driton

    If one or the other had a spy camera hat, the result might have been different
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    See? The state has nothing to lose. What did they get? A new trial. Big whoop.
    Under the circumstances, it beats the heck out of the alternative.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Under the circumstances, it beats the heck out of the alternative.
    The guy will be in prison for the time period that the new trial is had an completed--maybe longer than original sentencing.

    Working well?

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