Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 31

Thread: Alarm goes off at neighbor's house, friend checks it out, is stopped and handcuffed

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    Alarm goes off at neighbor's house, friend checks it out, is stopped and handcuffed

    I'm interested in comments regarding an incident that happened to a FRIEND OF MINE in Ohio, specifically to the part about the LEO's assertion regarding shooting someone in someone else's house (I'm presuming in self-defense). I have my own thoughts, but am interested in what the collective thinks.

    With a few corrections and deletions here is his story:


    I get the phone call from my neighbor. His back door alarm is going off.

    I grab my Beretta and run over across the street. The back door is open about a foot. I go room to room starting with the first floor, the basement, and the second floor. Clear.

    I walk out the back door I came in, and close it tight this time. I am now walking back home to call my neighbor back and tell him the door was open and no one was in there.

    I almost get to the street and I see LEO stop his car down the street. I put my gun down, stood up and waited for the usual instructions - got them, got handcuffed and started explaining.

    One officer in front of me and one behind me. While one officer was checking out my story, the other one started patting down my pockets. He took out my wallet. "Now wait a minute, I didn't consent to any searches", he was very kind and put it back.

    I giggled and ask him if he ever worked for TSA, apparently he didn't think much of my lame attempt at humor.

    After a short investigation I was informed that if I had shot someone in somebody else's house, it would not be justified, that the Popo should have been called.

    I have checked this house maybe a dozen times over the last 20 years, always armed in the event of a threat. I wasn't listening to him.

    I did ask if I was under arrest, and if I did anything wrong, and "no" was the answer both time. This was the point I made it clear to the small crowd of people that I should either be charged or uncuffed. At which point the cuffs came off and I got my Beretta back.

    The Police did a good job, I wasn't shot and both my dogs survived. They both were in the house.

    I believe one of my other neighbor's customers saw me running across the street and noticed my Beretta, she made the call. You know, man running, gun in hand....all worked out fine.

    Just a little excitement. I think I'm going to call and see about a copy of any existing dash cam video. Called and alas, that vehicle didn't have a camera.
    Last edited by BB62; 07-16-2014 at 12:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,216
    Bad idea... All around. Not sure what the point of putting yourself in a position where you either a)shoot someone stealing a TV b) get shot by someone stealing TV or c) get shot by cop coming to alarm. Even if you catch a guy in there then what? You now detain him at gun point to wait for the cops? So the cops show up with some dude (not homeowner) holding a gun to someone proned out?

    Clearly if the cop arrived as he was exiting the building they weren't far off. So what was gained by "clearing " the house? Cops were coming either way because of the alarm.

    And legally i doubt you'd be good if you did shoot someone that was a "threat". Seeing as he/ your clearly going above and beyond putting yourself in danger over a friends TV.



    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  3. #3
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,318
    Was no one in the neighbors house at the time? If not, might have been worth it to take an extra second and holster the firearm instead of running across the street with it in-hand.

    I don't know about Ohio law regarding this situation so I can't really speak to that.

    Primus, homeowner or not is irrelevant. The police don't know who lives there.

    Like I said, I don't know Ohio law on the subject, but where I'm from I believe if you are 'given control' of another's property then you generally have all of the same authority to defend it as does the owner. If that happened here, as soon as the friend called me and told me about the alarm with the expectation that I "check it out" I'd have legally had the authority to shoot anyone inside the house if I'm not mistaken, being nighttime. Edit: Not saying I WOULD, just saying I don't think Primus is on-base with his assertion. I think it would all depend on the LAW IN OHIO which is why I didn't even want to address that part of the OP but since Primus decided to without looking at the law I figured I'd just point out that the law has not been examined and I'm sure differs from state to state.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 07-16-2014 at 12:26 PM.
    Advocate freedom please

  4. #4
    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    728
    I think it would all depend on the circumstances surrounding the shoot. Of course, since it wasn't your friend's house, he wouldn't be covered by castle doctrine, and being in Ohio (as you know) there is no stand your ground law so your friend would have had to attempt to disengage if threatened.

    Now, that said, I'm not sure how clearing the house with a gun drawn would look to a jury - could that be considered initiating or escalating a situation? Very possibly. It will be interesting to hear from anyone with case law or even direct knowledge.
    Christian, Husband, Father
    NRA Life Member
    NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
    NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

    Anything I post in these forums is my personal opinion formed by my own interpretation of the topic.
    IANAL and anything I say is not intended to be nor should it be taken as legal advice.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,216
    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Was no one in the neighbors house at the time? If not, might have been worth it to take an extra second and holster the firearm instead of running across the street with it in-hand.

    I don't know about Ohio law regarding this situation so I can't really speak to that.

    Primus, homeowner or not is irrelevant. The police don't know who lives there.

    Like I said, I don't know Ohio law on the subject, but where I'm from if you are given control of another's property then you generally have all of the same authority to defend it as does the owner. If that happened here, as soon as the friend called me and told me about the alarm with the expectation that I "check it out" I'd have legally had the authority to shoot anyone inside the house if I'm not mistaken, being nighttime.
    Define "control"... Is a phone call enough to ascertain control? How do you control something from a block away or even next door?

    When your in your house you have no control over the property. Once the guy calls and says "hey can u check it out" clearly u weren't in "control" prior because how did the bad guy get in..... So now you have to take steps to TAKE control of said property by "clearing" the property.

    I understand what your saying though and I think your right with stuff like "housesitting". If he was already in the house and had "control" of it because he was watching the house then good to go. Same rules would apply as castle doctrine. But to go FROM your house "castle" TO the THREAT with clear intent of "clearing" said threat.... Is more of a stand your ground issue then castle doctrine. And I guess it depends on the state as to if that would hold.

    But I still highly doubt no matter what "defense" you used that a jury would be ok with this. And if he's admitting he was lucky he wasnt shot then probably not a good idea.

    I'd be I interested to see cites in regards to the take control of a property via telephone to respond to a threat.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    300
    Primus, google Joe Horn. That's how things work here in the lone star state. YMMV

  7. #7
    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    God's Country, Missouri
    Posts
    1,279
    I would be buying some doughnuts and personally delivering them to your local police department with a handwritten thank you note for not proning you out, cuffing you up, dragging you downtown, throwing you in a cell, charging you with breaking and entering, and letting the courts figure it out.

    After all, to make an arrest, all they need is probable cause, which you handed to them on a silver platter.

    What? You mean an alarm going off, a 911 call of an armed individual in the street, an open door, and someone roaming around in a house (that isn't his) in the middle of the night isn't probable cause?

    The police actually listened to your explanation, and even put your wallet back in your pocket after they had clearly established probable cause to do whatever they wanted with you regardless of your consent?

    What a cool, respectful bunch of officers. I wonder if they know how much you appreciate them giving two hoots about your perspective instead of just taking the actions that were well within their available options?

    You have made them aware of how much you appreciate their restraint, right?
    Last edited by Superlite27; 07-16-2014 at 01:16 PM. Reason: corekt mispelinges

  8. #8
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    When a neighbor asks me to "watch" his house while he is away on vacation for the week, gives me a key, then I am in control, I do not have to reside in his house. Just as a manager is in control of a business property regardless of whether or not the owner(s) are present.
    RSMo 563.031.3 A person does not have a duty to retreat from a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining.
    Different states different laws.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,095
    We are assuming the house was unoccupied, based on the story....bad idea. Willfully going from a place of 'safety' into a potential unsafe area, then shooting someone there is likely going to be a problem.

    The standard that will be used against you in court will be: Would a reasonable person think it is necessary to go into the unoccupied house (your's or someone Else's) to investigate a potential crime?

    Which is complete different from being inside while someone breaks in.

    Bad Idea!

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    I would be buying some doughnuts and personally delivering them to your local police department with a handwritten thank you note for not proning you out, cuffing you up, dragging you downtown, throwing you in a cell, charging you with breaking and entering, and letting the courts figure it out...
    I suggest you re-read the title of the thread, as well as the first sentence of my original post, which starts "I'm interested in comments regarding an incident that happened to a FRIEND OF MINE in Ohio..."

    Reading is fundamental.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Should have sold you gun to your neighbor and let the neighbor deal with her issues.

    Look, if you don't own a gun, you are more likely than not, an anti - no matter what you proclaim.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    East Valley
    Posts
    126

    Your friend did the right thing

    I think your friend did the right thing by making sure his neighbors house was protected. Could he have possibly gone the safe route of watching both front and rear doors until the police came to clear it? Yes. However looking out for a neighbor would be the right thing to do. I know I would want someone to keep an eye out for someone like my grandmother.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,216
    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    We are assuming the house was unoccupied, based on the story....bad idea. Willfully going from a place of 'safety' into a potential unsafe area, then shooting someone there is likely going to be a problem.

    The standard that will be used against you in court will be: Would a reasonable person think it is necessary to go into the unoccupied house (your's or someone Else's) to investigate a potential crime?

    Which is complete different from being inside while someone breaks in.

    Bad Idea!
    +1

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    , , Kernersville NC
    Posts
    783
    Red flags flying all over the place. I would have watched the house from a distance until police arrived. I damn sure wouldn't be running out in public with the gun in my hand. Holsters are cheap.

  15. #15
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,318
    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    We are assuming the house was unoccupied, based on the story....bad idea. Willfully going from a place of 'safety' into a potential unsafe area, then shooting someone there is likely going to be a problem.

    The standard that will be used against you in court will be: Would a reasonable person think it is necessary to go into the unoccupied house (your's or someone Else's) to investigate a potential crime?

    Which is complete different from being inside while someone breaks in.

    Bad Idea!
    According to what? We've already seen an example from another state of that not being the case. Please cite something that this is the standard used in Ohio court for a situation like this. Otherwise, I think you might have pulled that out of your bohonkus.

    Don't get me wrong... At first glance that might seem reasonable. But let's see example of what standards have actually been used in court, let's see court precedent. Hell, let's just see what the law actually is in Ohio for starters.

    Edit: Every time you step out your front door you're going from a "safe" place to a "less safe" place.

    Edit: Citizens and neighbors standing up for themselves, banding together, and protecting themselves and each other is not a bad thing. In fact, it's a very good thing. A thing which might even threaten to make questionable the necessity of a state or municipal police force with perceived better-than-citizen status. It's no shocker why certain folks would lean to the side of citizens doing less for themselves and relying on the "pros"
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 07-17-2014 at 12:40 AM.
    Advocate freedom please

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Whether something is a good or bad idea tactically, and whether it is legal or not are two separate issues.

    Some, especially cops, treat them as the same, which is unfortunate.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,201
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Whether something is a good or bad idea tactically, and whether it is legal or not are two separate issues.

    Some, especially cops, treat them as the same, which is unfortunate.

    It has a lot to do with how the call came into dispatch and how it was given out to patrol.

    Having cleared a few buildings looking for BGs doing so by your self is a good way not to survive.

    Knowing that the house was not occupied by your friend there is no reason to try and clear it until the police arrive and let them do it.

    Also one needs a plan on how your going to react when the police do arrive so you do not get shot by them.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 07-17-2014 at 07:44 AM.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,137
    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Bad idea............ what was gained by "clearing " the house?
    This can cause unwanted holes in my body.

    Quote Originally Posted by wethepeople View Post
    Red flags flying all over the place. I would have watched the house from a distance until police arrived. I damn sure wouldn't be running out in public with the gun in my hand. Holsters are cheap.
    Gun in hand, unless being used, can cause those same unwanted holes in my body.

    This happened to me recently. I opened my door to a snowy morn. My neighbor was out of town, but his front door was open and no footprints in the snow. I called 911 to inform them and reminded them that I was positioned in MY yard within sight of the open door and was armed with a well holstered pistol on my hip. Within five to eight minutes (try holding your breath that long) four squads and a command car were on the scene. THEY did the house clearing, and scared hell out of the daughter in the very last room at the bottom of the house. Seems as tho the "boyfriend" left at Oh dark thirty and tried to be quiet in closing(failed) the door.

    Weapon in hand.....bad move
    house clearing......bad move
    Call 911 and stand by......that will work, and you are there IF needed, not because you interjected yourself into an unknown.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  19. #19
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,216
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    This can cause unwanted holes in my body.



    Gun in hand, unless being used, can cause those same unwanted holes in my body.

    This happened to me recently. I opened my door to a snowy morn. My neighbor was out of town, but his front door was open and no footprints in the snow. I called 911 to inform them and reminded them that I was positioned in MY yard within sight of the open door and was armed with a well holstered pistol on my hip. Within five to eight minutes (try holding your breath that long) four squads and a command car were on the scene. THEY did the house clearing, and scared hell out of the daughter in the very last room at the bottom of the house. Seems as tho the "boyfriend" left at Oh dark thirty and tried to be quiet in closing(failed) the door.

    Weapon in hand.....bad move
    house clearing......bad move
    Call 911 and stand by......that will work, and you are there IF needed, not because you interjected yourself into an unknown.
    Well said.+1

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    I find people's opinions about the advisability of doing what my friend did to be very interesting, but would like to steer things back to my main question:

    "After a short investigation I was informed that if I had shot someone in somebody else's house, it would not be justified, that the Popo should have been called." (a LEO's legal advice)

    Is the consensus that the cop was legally correct or incorrect?

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Jefferson County, CO
    Posts
    260
    It's my understanding that the LEO is correct. Even Castle Doctrine rarely protects somebody in their OWN home, if the homeowner was outside, found the door open, then went inside.

    The basic idea is that your friend went into the threat area, instead of the BG threatening your friend.

    JackRock
    Last edited by jackrockblc; 07-17-2014 at 11:21 AM.

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrockblc View Post
    ...Even Castle Doctrine rarely protects somebody in their OWN home...
    I think you're misinformed there, but thank you for your opinion.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,216
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrockblc View Post
    It's my understanding that the LEO is correct. Even Castle Doctrine rarely protects somebody in their OWN home, if the homeowner was outside, found the door open, then went inside.

    The basic idea is that your friend went into the threat area, instead of the BG threatening your friend.

    JackRock
    Agreed. But I guess it would be state dependent. I suppose if a state had a stand your ground law that didn't require you to retreat then you could use that as a defense. But I still say clearing the house is going above and beyond the scope of that defense.

    It'd be like responding to a bank robbery because your wife works there. Could you fly across town because she called you or your heard it on the news? Could you then insert yourself in danger and shoot the robber legally and claim defense of others?

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Jefferson County, CO
    Posts
    260
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    I think you're misinformed there, but thank you for your opinion.
    Please look at the whole sentence, not a fragment.

    JackRock

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Jefferson County, CO
    Posts
    260
    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Agreed. But I guess it would be state dependent. I suppose if a state had a stand your ground law that didn't require you to retreat then you could use that as a defense. But I still say clearing the house is going above and beyond the scope of that defense.

    It'd be like responding to a bank robbery because your wife works there. Could you fly across town because she called you or your heard it on the news? Could you then insert yourself in danger and shoot the robber legally and claim defense of others?

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Exactly. Standing your ground is one thing. Actively advancing into danger from a position of relative safety is entirely different. Hence, my earlier response about what Castle Doctrine surprisingly doesn't protect (in some jurisdictions).

    JackRock

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •