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Thread: Law abiding Pennsylvania mother victimized by New Jersey gun laws

  1. #1
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    Law abiding Pennsylvania mother victimized by New Jersey gun laws

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/16...on-gun-charge/

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    1 - she may have been law-abiding in PA, but she was a scofflaw, a common criminal, in NJ.

    2 - she was not victimized. Except perhaps by her own stupidity. (That's right - stupidity. Not ignorance. Stupidity.)

    3 - it is a shame that more folks are not aware of the issue of reciprocity, and even if they are that they do not check the fine print on reciprocity between their home state and where they are planning to wind up.

    4 - other than hiring a cadre of instructors armed with 2x4s I have no idea of how to make what seems to be the vast majority of law-abiding gun owners aware of the concept of reciprocity and how it applies to anywhere they might go outside their home state.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    One of the comments to the story...

    How about you don't own a gun if you don't know your laws? Pretty simple eh?
    How exactly is it possible to know all the laws of every state? Just makes me chuckle.
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
    1) Liberals never quit until they are satisfied.
    2) Liberals are never satisfied.

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    The carrying of a hand gun by a law abiding citizen from State to State, should not be criminalized by any particular State law.

    A law abiding citizen should have a right to keep an bear arms in defense of his/her life and property where ever they travel without fear of being made into a criminal.

    My .02

    The bogus stop for an improper lane change in the early morning hours is also a joke.

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    The carrying of a hand gun by a law abiding citizen from State to State, should not be criminalized by any particular State law.

    A law abiding citizen should have a right to keep an bear arms in defense of his/her life and property where ever they travel without fear of being made into a criminal.

    My .02

    The bogus stop for an improper lane change in the early morning hours is also a joke.

    Regards

    CCJ
    Exactly ... and I will never yield my gun(s) to the state.

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    That's why you never disclose and never consent to a vehicle search.
    Last edited by mtlhdtodd; 07-16-2014 at 06:46 PM.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    She is still law abiding in my opinion.

    Where is the victim? NO Victim no crime. Breaking an unconstitutional law is not breaking a law.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    I feel bad for the lady but that wasn't a very smart move. New Jersey's totalitarian view of guns is well know (or should be) by anyone wanting to carry. I travel across the country every year, but because I spend overnight in NJ I have to leave my weapon at my folks in PA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TTTinker View Post
    I feel bad for the lady but that wasn't a very smart move. New Jersey's totalitarian view of guns is well know (or should be) by anyone wanting to carry. I travel across the country every year, but because I spend overnight in NJ I have to leave my weapon at my folks in PA.
    Hi TTTinker
    Welcome to OCDO. How did that make you feel, when traveling from PA to NJ unarmed and defenseless against those that may wish to do you ill will?
    Law abiding citizens should not be left to feel helpless against those folks(criminals) that wish to do us harm. We have a right to feel secure in our person/property.. The draconian gun laws in NJ strip the law abiding citizen from feeling secure in his/her right to protect their life and their property,your life by the way is your property therefore the State is in violation of the U.S. Constitution.

    My .02

    Regards
    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    The carrying of a hand gun by a law abiding citizen from State to State, should not be criminalized by any particular State law.

    A law abiding citizen should have a right to keep an bear arms in defense of his/her life and property where ever they travel without fear of being made into a criminal.

    My .02

    The bogus stop for an improper lane change in the early morning hours is also a joke.

    Regards

    CCJ
    I had that happen in Redmond Washington. There was no changing of lanes in the first place in my case. Was cuffed and harassed because I was carrying.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    And just because there was a technical violation of the law does not mean that the cop had to arrest either.

    A decent cop would have just said "You know you are in NJ? I suggest you head back over to PA.".

    Situations like this are exactly why we have separation of powers ... to stop abuses by legislatures.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    And just because there was a technical violation of the law does not mean that the cop had to arrest either.

    A decent cop would have just said "You know you are in NJ? I suggest you head back over to PA.".

    Situations like this are exactly why we have separation of powers ... to stop abuses by legislatures.
    That is exactly what they should have done. Yet they now they get a notch in their belt, get to count her in the numbers of evil criminals they are in dire need to to thwart and use it as a rationalization to steal more money for themselves from their employers who are really nothing but tax slaves.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    I wonder if the citizen just refuses to go back to NJ for trial ?

    Would the state of PA defend her from being snatched by NJ?

    Would PA just tell NJ to drop dead, that they will offer no assistance?

    Would PA tell NJ to stay out of PA for this purpose?

    Could this turn into another Bundy ranch scenario?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I wonder if the citizen just refuses to go back to NJ for trial ?

    Would the state of PA defend her from being snatched by NJ?

    Would PA just tell NJ to drop dead, that they will offer no assistance?

    Would PA tell NJ to stay out of PA for this purpose?

    Could this turn into another Bundy ranch scenario?
    Hi davidmebeth

    Great questions and ones her attorney should be querying the PA attorney general's office about. Would the state of Pennsylvania protect her right to life,liberty and property against agents from the State of NJ? Very interesting.

    I did not read about any bail being set or posted. Is the Lady out on bail? If yes, and she does not appear for the hearing, the court will issue a warrant for her immediate arrest and all bail money would be lost. In the event that she would encounter LEO again, then they would have a duty to arrest. The extradition after an arrest would in fact become another issue. Again very interesting.

    Ponder this scenario. The lady is released on bail and goes back to PA, She immediately files a "Restraining Order" against the State of NJ and all its actors for fear of violence against her life. The RO motion would need to be ruled upon by a PA court. See how legally interesting this case could become. I am not aware of any case law where a citizen filed a RO against a State. ( My next research project).

    My .02
    Regards
    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    I read where the lady is out on bond.

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Hi davidmebeth

    Great questions and ones her attorney should be querying the PA attorney general's office about. Would the state of Pennsylvania protect her right to life,liberty and property against agents from the State of NJ? Very interesting.

    I did not read about any bail being set or posted. Is the Lady out on bail? If yes, and she does not appear for the hearing, the court will issue a warrant for her immediate arrest and all bail money would be lost. In the event that she would encounter LEO again, then they would have a duty to arrest. The extradition after an arrest would in fact become another issue. Again very interesting.

    Ponder this scenario. The lady is released on bail and goes back to PA, She immediately files a "Restraining Order" against the State of NJ and all its actors for fear of violence against her life. The RO motion would need to be ruled upon by a PA court. See how legally interesting this case could become. I am not aware of any case law where a citizen filed a RO against a State. ( My next research project).

    My .02
    Regards
    CCJ
    I just filed an injunction against a state agency ... I don't see why a RO cannot be - especially since she is a woman ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Against_Women_Act

    Stretching the federal law? Maybe, maybe not.

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    The Mother of two is a hard working law abiding citizen. This is a clear miscarriage of justice. The prosecutor could have used his discretion on this case from jump street however now with the publicity this case is garnishing, he will more then likely stand on his convictions and try to prosecute.
    This is a clear example of what Frederic Bastiat stated in his wonderful book " The Law"
    " When law and morality are in contradiction to each other,the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law--two evils of equal magnitude,between which it would be difficult to chose."
    If anyone knows of or hears of a defense fund for this young Mother, please post it. I would donate gladly.

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    The Mother of two is a hard working law abiding citizen. This is a clear miscarriage of justice. The prosecutor could have used his discretion on this case from jump street however now with the publicity this case is garnishing, he will more then likely stand on his convictions and try to prosecute.
    This is a clear example of what Frederic Bastiat stated in his wonderful book " The Law"
    " When law and morality are in contradiction to each other,the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law--two evils of equal magnitude,between which it would be difficult to chose."
    If anyone knows of or hears of a defense fund for this young Mother, please post it. I would donate gladly.

    Regards

    CCJ
    I think that she admitted to the crime and that the court's hands are tied .. and in NJ the courts will not rule the law unconstitutional. So why toss $$ down the drain unless the defense fund is an actual defense fund, if you know what I mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I think that she admitted to the crime and that the court's hands are tied .. and in NJ the courts will not rule the law unconstitutional. So why toss $$ down the drain unless the defense fund is an actual defense fund, if you know what I mean.
    This is another example why folks need to keep their mouths shut during police encounters. Clearly this woman had little to no experience in dealing on the wrong side of the law. Please note that she was the victim of two robbery's hence the weapons for defence.
    Her honesty and the draconian NJ gun laws along with mandatory sentencing will probably result in this hard working Mother of two, being put in a cage, losing her children, her house,job and possibly her life. The law is not justified in this incident. The punishment does not fit the crime.
    Currently I have not heard or read of any black leaders(Sharpton,Jackson) coming forward in defence of this woman.
    If anyone is a poster child for the 2nd Amendment, this Mother of two, surely is. She and her children were the victims of two horrible crimes.
    In my opinion incarcerating this woman would serve no ones best interest. She is not a threat to society,The draconian NJ gun laws are a threat to
    life,liberty and property of all law abiding citizens. The only victim in this case is the woman,and her family.

    My .02

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    This is another example why folks need to keep their mouths shut during police encounters. Clearly this woman had little to no experience in dealing on the wrong side of the law. Please note that she was the victim of two robbery's hence the weapons for defence.
    Her honesty and the draconian NJ gun laws along with mandatory sentencing will probably result in this hard working Mother of two, being put in a cage, losing her children, her house,job and possibly her life. The law is not justified in this incident. The punishment does not fit the crime.
    Currently I have not heard or read of any black leaders(Sharpton,Jackson) coming forward in defence of this woman.
    If anyone is a poster child for the 2nd Amendment, this Mother of two, surely is. She and her children were the victims of two horrible crimes.
    In my opinion incarcerating this woman would serve no ones best interest. She is not a threat to society,The draconian NJ gun laws are a threat to
    life,liberty and property of all law abiding citizens. The only victim in this case is the woman,and her family.

    My .02

    CCJ
    Hard to argue with that...

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Boycott New Jersey.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  22. #22
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Boycott New Jersey.
    I have been since 1998....I dont think they have noticed yet.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    This is another example why folks need to keep their mouths shut during police encounters. Clearly this woman had little to no experience in dealing on the wrong side of the law. Please note that she was the victim of two robbery's hence the weapons for defence.
    Her honesty and the draconian NJ gun laws along with mandatory sentencing will probably result in this hard working Mother of two, being put in a cage, losing her children, her house,job and possibly her life. The law is not justified in this incident. The punishment does not fit the crime.
    Currently I have not heard or read of any black leaders(Sharpton,Jackson) coming forward in defence of this woman.
    If anyone is a poster child for the 2nd Amendment, this Mother of two, surely is. She and her children were the victims of two horrible crimes.
    In my opinion incarcerating this woman would serve no ones best interest. She is not a threat to society,The draconian NJ gun laws are a threat to
    life,liberty and property of all law abiding citizens. The only victim in this case is the woman,and her family.

    My .02

    CCJ
    Well said. +1

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    1 - she may have been law-abiding in PA, but she was a scofflaw, a common criminal, in NJ.

    2 - she was not victimized. Except perhaps by her own stupidity. (That's right - stupidity. Not ignorance. Stupidity.)

    3 - it is a shame that more folks are not aware of the issue of reciprocity, and even if they are that they do not check the fine print on reciprocity between their home state and where they are planning to wind up.

    4 - other than hiring a cadre of instructors armed with 2x4s I have no idea of how to make what seems to be the vast majority of law-abiding gun owners aware of the concept of reciprocity and how it applies to anywhere they might go outside their home state.

    stay safe.
    Be that someone would be as snarky if and when you get caught afoul of one of the 10,000s of gun laws that no one person can possibly know all about.

    I'd grant that more involved gun owners might have gone to the trouble to find that out, but most people like this woman really aren't thinking that broadly about how the government is trying to violate their rights in regards to firearms. She found that she was a victim, that having a firearm would help her resist that and though that getting the license would be enough (certainly should have been).

    If there is no intent to harm, there should be no crime - period. That is one of the problems with the country these days, far too many victimless crimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    Be that someone would be as snarky if and when you get caught afoul of one of the 10,000s of gun laws that no one person can possibly know all about.

    I'd grant that more involved gun owners might have gone to the trouble to find that out, but most people like this woman really aren't thinking that broadly about how the government is trying to violate their rights in regards to firearms. She found that she was a victim, that having a firearm would help her resist that and though that getting the license would be enough (certainly should have been).

    If there is no intent to harm, there should be no crime - period. That is one of the problems with the country these days, far too many victimless crimes.
    +1

    This is one case where I would pay to be on the jury..
    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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