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Thread: Rules in Alabama - Knocking on Neighbor's door

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    Question Rules in Alabama - Knocking on Neighbor's door

    I have this unfortunate ******* match going on with my neighbor's involving their dogs. For those who like to read, here is the summary.

    The bottom line is my neighbors will be looking to retaliate over anything, no matter how petty. So I want to watch my Ps and Qs with my gun and do everything strictly by the book. I just read an excellent post about the Hoover Police Department, and that puts some of my concerns at ease.

    I guess I should disclose that I've never owned a pistol, until now. I did obtain a concealed carry permit. And I hope I never have to fire the gun again. (I fired it at the shooting range to make sure I can safely operate.)

    My understanding is that while I am on my property, I can basically carry my guns when I want and how I want. What about my neighbor's property? Can I knock on his door and ask if he is available to talk? Does it matter if the gun is concealed or not? It looks like according to 13A-11-52, it is okay to do this both concealed and open if I have a permit.

    Damn, this stuff is complicated! Someone simplify it for me please.

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    Sure, you can carry ...

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    Considering the history you have with the neighbor I would go concealed. An open gun on his property might just cause more headache for you in the future. Always remember though. If asked to leave do so immediately.

    As far as never having to shoot the gun again I hope you don't mean never. You should be shooting at least ever few months at the very least. I cannot stress this enough but if you have the money get some training. Training can be the difference between life and death.

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bocraw View Post

    I guess I should disclose that I've never owned a pistol, until now. I did obtain a concealed carry permit. And I hope I never have to fire the gun again. (I fired it at the shooting range to make sure I can safely operate.)



    Damn, this stuff is complicated! Someone simplify it for me please.

    I want to address these two lines in your first post. I believe being a responsible firearm owner/carrier requires you to train and practice regularly. I would think once a month would be ok, once a quarter at worst. You should be proficient in drawing the weapon from your holster, acquiring your target and keeping rounds on target. I like to go with a friend and get the target with different shapes, colors and numbers. My friend can then call out "yellows" or 1, 4 or squares. This way it keeps your mind working while shooting. You should also practice reloading from a spare mag in case the weapon jams while under duress.

    Secondly, you're right, it is complicated sometimes. I think a lot of us wish it was simpler (2A is pretty clear i would think) but it's not. You are carrying the ability to respond with deadly force. That is a big responsibility so please continue to read up and ask questions. There is a lot of good advice here.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Dear OP, sorry that is not a summary of events as you outlined in the forum and after reading your published manifesto and your responses to comments, outlining your veiled threat(s), real or perceived, to your neighbour and his partner, i would like to recommend and highly suggest you get rid of your firearm as soon as practical and ensure you have stacks of documentation showing where and how you got rid of it.

    sorry, BO but you have no business with any type of lethal object anywhere near you let alone a firearm which you state publicly on this forum you have no idea how to use the firearm, or the basic considerations how and where you can carry, as well as publicly state on this forum, you want to carry the firearm onto your neghbour's property which i can only presume is to be used for intimidation purposes when you next confront your neighbour at his door.

    (BTW i do not care if you crouch carrying the firearm for protection from the dogs or not, you are trying to intimidate especially when you leave a position of safety (your property) and go to your neighbour's property where there are 'dangerous creatures' which could be released on you.)

    additionally, no where do you state you called the police and animal control or filed a complaint.

    bottom line, and i do not say this lightly, sorry BO, reading your manifesto coupled with the posts here, leads me to believe you are not mature enough to have and handle a firearm for the purposes it was intended and this situation will bring significant trauma and turmoil into your life, especially more than what you are currently experiencing.

    ipse

    addendum: before jumping into my case, i ask you please completely read the OP's published manifest of the situation
    Last edited by solus; 08-01-2014 at 09:29 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    OP you need to get out of there and move forward. Focusing on getting even will chew you up and destroy your life if you let it. Agree w#5.
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    OP you need to get out of there and move forward. Focusing on getting even will chew you up and destroy your life if you let it. Agree w#5.
    Yea, I'm going to second this suggestion also. Sounds like the OP is on the path to living elsewhere, be it by his choice where he moves to, or as a guest of the AL DOC.

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    I’m here to support your right to bear arms for defense, not to intimidate you for doing so. I live in Alabama, by the way, unlike some of those who have jumped on you for no good reason.

    Section 2 of the following opinion of the Alabama Supreme Court refers to a statute that is now codified as Section 13A-11-52 in the Code of Alabama 1975 to which you refer. Recently, the Alabama Court of Criminal Appeals confirmed that there was no punishment defined in our state code for a violation of Section 13A-11-52 before it was amended during the 2013 regular session of the legislature. The Court upheld a conviction of the defendant relying on a municipal ordinance in Jacksonville, AL to define a punishment for a violation of the municipal ordinance that adopted 13A-11-52 into the city code. The amended version of the statute in 2013 still failed to define a punishment for violation of the amended statute.

    Notice that the Alabama Supreme Court stated that the statute applies to carrying a pistol onto the property of another for OFFENSIVE purposes. Our Declaration of Rights affords no protection for bearing arms for OFFENSIVE purposes. Section 4 of the act was repealed and no longer appears in our Code:

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX

    “Said section [***3] 2 is not violative of section 26 of the Bill of Rights, as it merely prevents the carrying of arms for offensive purposes, and does not deprive a person of the right to bear arms in defense of himself or the state. Moreover, section 4 of the act authorizes the defendant to give in evidence the fact that he had good reason to apprehend an attack, either in mitigation of the fine or in justification of the offense.”

    Isaiah v. The State.
    [NO NUMBER IN ORIGINAL]
    SUPREME COURT OF ALABAMA
    176 Ala. 27; 58 So. 53; 1911 Ala. LEXIS 401
    June 30, 1911, Decided

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXX


    There is a recent decision involving a charge of menacing that you may be interested in as well. The Supreme Court of Alabama ruled in EX PARTE PATE, Ala: Supreme Court 2013 that “…Pate's getting the gun, without more, was not sufficient to establish the physical-action element of menacing”.

    http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...en&as_sdt=4,64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    I want to address these two lines in your first post. I believe being a responsible firearm owner/carrier requires you to train and practice regularly. I would think once a month would be ok, once a quarter at worst. You should be proficient in drawing the weapon from your holster, acquiring your target and keeping rounds on target. I like to go with a friend and get the target with different shapes, colors and numbers. My friend can then call out "yellows" or 1, 4 or squares. This way it keeps your mind working while shooting. You should also practice reloading from a spare mag in case the weapon jams while under duress.

    Secondly, you're right, it is complicated sometimes. I think a lot of us wish it was simpler (2A is pretty clear i would think) but it's not. You are carrying the ability to respond with deadly force. That is a big responsibility so please continue to read up and ask questions. There is a lot of good advice here.

    No 1: The poster went to the range to make sure he could use his firearm safely. Our Declaration of Rights requires none of the personal preferences for training that you advocate before bearing arms for defense of self and state.

    No. 2. We are discussing Alabama law. Alabama has a Declaration of Rights that excepts everything in our Declaration of Rights out of the general powers of government unlike Arkansas and the states that touch the borders of Alabama. Our legislature was created by our state's constitution, not by the federal constitution to which you refer. While the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States affords protection of our right to keep and bear arms for defense, our state's constitution provides even more protection.


    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

    “State courts cannot rest when they have afforded their citizens the
    full protections of the federal Constitution. State constitutions, too,
    are a font of individual liberties, their protections often extending
    beyond those required by the Supreme Court's interpretations of
    federal law. The legal revolution which has brought federal law to
    the fore must not be allowed to inhibit the independent protective
    force of state law-for without it, the full realization of our liberties
    cannot be guaranteed.”

    Justice Brennan of the United States Supreme Court
    Brennan, State Constitutions and the Protection oj Individual Rights, 90 HARv. L. REv.
    489, 491 (1977).


    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Dear OP, sorry that is not a summary of events as you outlined in the forum and after reading your published manifesto and your responses to comments, outlining your veiled threat(s), real or perceived, to your neighbour and his partner, i would like to recommend and highly suggest you get rid of your firearm as soon as practical and ensure you have stacks of documentation showing where and how you got rid of it.

    sorry, BO but you have no business with any type of lethal object anywhere near you let alone a firearm which you state publicly on this forum you have no idea how to use the firearm, or the basic considerations how and where you can carry, as well as publicly state on this forum, you want to carry the firearm onto your neghbour's property which i can only presume is to be used for intimidation purposes when you next confront your neighbour at his door.

    (BTW i do not care if you crouch carrying the firearm for protection from the dogs or not, you are trying to intimidate especially when you leave a position of safety (your property) and go to your neighbour's property where there are 'dangerous creatures' which could be released on you.)

    additionally, no where do you state you called the police and animal control or filed a complaint.

    bottom line, and i do not say this lightly, sorry BO, reading your manifesto coupled with the posts here, leads me to believe you are not mature enough to have and handle a firearm for the purposes it was intended and this situation will bring significant trauma and turmoil into your life, especially more than what you are currently experiencing.

    ipse

    addendum: before jumping into my case, i ask you please completely read the OP's published manifest of the situation

    First, your addendum: I read the original post. Obviously, you must not have. I saw no "veiled threats" or any "manifesto".

    Second: This site is pro gun rights. What are you doing here?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Dear OP, sorry that is not a summary of events as you outlined in the forum and after reading your published manifesto and your responses to comments, outlining your veiled threat(s), real or perceived, to your neighbour and his partner, i would like to recommend and highly suggest you get rid of your firearm as soon as practical and ensure you have stacks of documentation showing where and how you got rid of it.

    sorry, BO but you have no business with any type of lethal object anywhere near you let alone a firearm which you state publicly on this forum you have no idea how to use the firearm, or the basic considerations how and where you can carry, as well as publicly state on this forum, you want to carry the firearm onto your neghbour's property which i can only presume is to be used for intimidation purposes when you next confront your neighbour at his door.

    (BTW i do not care if you crouch carrying the firearm for protection from the dogs or not, you are trying to intimidate especially when you leave a position of safety (your property) and go to your neighbour's property where there are 'dangerous creatures' which could be released on you.)

    additionally, no where do you state you called the police and animal control or filed a complaint.

    bottom line, and i do not say this lightly, sorry BO, reading your manifesto coupled with the posts here, leads me to believe you are not mature enough to have and handle a firearm for the purposes it was intended and this situation will bring significant trauma and turmoil into your life, especially more than what you are currently experiencing.

    ipse

    addendum: before jumping into my case, i ask you please completely read the OP's published manifest of the situation
    I read it, and I find your reaction a complete non-sequitur and wholly uncalled-for.

    The OP didn't make any threats. He did advise them that, in the future, he would be prepared to defend against their aggression with concomitant force, but that isn't a threat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bocraw View Post
    I guess I should disclose that I've never owned a pistol, until now. I did obtain a concealed carry permit. And I hope I never have to fire the gun again. (I fired it at the shooting range to make sure I can safely operate.)
    Don't worry with that level of training if the time does comes you will be ineffective, you would be better off with pepper spray or mace, maybe a bat
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix David View Post
    Don't worry with that level of training if the time does comes you will be ineffective, you would be better off with pepper spray or mace, maybe a bat
    The man has a right to bear arms for defense. He doesn't need your approval.

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    Snail mail, e-mail, and maybe a telephone.

    I would not step onto the neighbor's property, armed or not. It is unfortunate that a notice of trespass is required. They do have those signs at Wally World.

    Document and record. Is Alabama a one party state or two? It seems a video camera is in order for the disputed side of the OP's property.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by bocraw View Post
    I have this unfortunate ******* match going on with my neighbor's involving their dogs. For those who like to read, here is the summary.

    The bottom line is my neighbors will be looking to retaliate over anything, no matter how petty. So I want to watch my Ps and Qs with my gun and do everything strictly by the book. I just read an excellent post about the Hoover Police Department, and that puts some of my concerns at ease.

    I guess I should disclose that I've never owned a pistol, until now. I did obtain a concealed carry permit. And I hope I never have to fire the gun again. (I fired it at the shooting range to make sure I can safely operate.)

    My understanding is that while I am on my property, I can basically carry my guns when I want and how I want. What about my neighbor's property? Can I knock on his door and ask if he is available to talk? Does it matter if the gun is concealed or not? It looks like according to 13A-11-52, it is okay to do this both concealed and open if I have a permit.

    Damn, this stuff is complicated! Someone simplify it for me please.
    Confronting your neighbor on his own property doesn't seem like a good idea given the history you describe. Why not file a complaint and let enforcement officers confront him?

    Here's a link to some information on the subject:

    http://www.aces.edu/urban/FamilyWebsite/UNP-0047.pdf

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    The major issue I see with that letter is the notice of trespass. I don't think it will pass legal muster since it was mailed and addressed to Jay, not the person being trespassed. Not sufficient notice I think. Mail a notice of trespass separately to her with some sort of tracking or signature for proof it was sent and/or recieved.

    Otherwise in regard to the arguments posted here, I agree with recent sentiment... he has a Right to self defense and is doing as any citizen should... he has a need for it and wishes to protect himself. His warning his neighbor is not a veiled or direct threat, merely a warning to them that inaction or negligence on their part to keep their dogs in check may have deadly consequences for those dogs. He tried it the hard way before and was completely ineffective, so he got the proper tools to be effective in his desire to protect himself and his property.
    Last edited by Baked on Grease; 08-25-2014 at 04:24 PM.
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    sorry, but i am afraid legally, the term threat conveys a: quote a menace; a declaration of one’s purpose or intention to work injury to the person, property, or rights of another. A threat has been defined to be any menace of such a nature and extent as to unsettle the mind of the person on whom it operates, and to take away from his acts that free, voluntary action which alone constitutes consent. unquote.

    Bo's quote: 'I’ve also prepared myself in the event of future dog attacks by carrying a sidearm." unquote only later is there a second sentence mentioning his firearm for 'self-defence'

    please re-read my post to the OP who admitted in his post he doesn't have a clue on how to use a firearm and who wrote a rambling manifesto to his neighbour covering: temper tantrums, juvenile actions, dangerous dogs, oh, right rationale for calling animal control (sidebar ~ why didn't AC take the animals after the myriad of issue(s) were reported?), quotes from famous ppl & the Bible, neighbour's relationship, showed pictures of a black man contemplating and injured dog, explained how to get dogs apart in the event of a fight, recommendation to contact an attorney, trespass ~ but you can come over but not your partner, and finally an attempt at public embarrassment~ quote

    And finally, I fully intend to post this on the internet so the absurdity of the entire situation is exposed for all to see.I told you man-to-man that I intended to pressure you into being responsible with your dogs. That pressure includes being vigilant in staying on topic, and using juvenile situations like ripped up grass as an opportunity to refocus attention on the primary problem of you harboring vicious dogs that are not securely confined or muzzled. unquote

    then asked this august group if he can carry his gun to his neighbour's house which i am afraid could be construed as: quote: An act or words that are used to incite a person or group of people to action. The resulting act is usually a crime of impulse and the reasoning is that he/she made me do it by saying provocative things.unquote.

    folks, who in their right mind would support someone who writes this kind of rambling and incoherent manifesto (quote: A formal written declaration, promulgated by a prince, or by the executive authority of a state or nation, proclaiming its reasons and motives for declaring a war, or for any other Important international action. unquote) to a neighbour who then wants to carry his gun to the neighbour's to 'talk' about the situation ~ the trespass? the dogs? the 4 inch property creep? the grass? exactly what part of the situation for goodness sake are they going to discuss??

    baked on grease, you think his manifesto is about the trespass?

    which 49er, and OC4ME after chastising me you have conceded going to your neighbour's house '...doesn't sound like a good idea...' Really, ya think? Oh and your 12 year olde ag bulletin was a nice contribution!

    Marshaul 'tis my opinion a word i know you are familiar with as you use it constantly so get over someone else using the concept.

    OP pursue statute 3-6-1 of the great State of AL

    ipse

    oh ya forgot: http://thelawdictionary.org/
    Last edited by solus; 08-25-2014 at 08:13 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    solus,

    Your crock of bs does nothing to further our goal of defending our right to bear arms for defense.

    What is your real purpose for joining us here?



    solus:

    "...folks, who in their right mind would support someone who writes this kind of rambling and incoherent manifesto ... "



    Your posts fit that description better than any other in this thread.

    Take your own medicine solus, and take your ramblings back to your own state's forum.
    Last edited by 49er; 08-25-2014 at 11:05 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I didn't find the OP's "manifesto" to be either rambling or incoherent in the least.

    I found it well-written and engaging, and funny if at times a little snide.

    The OP ought to get some pistol practice though.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix David View Post
    Don't worry with that level of training if the time does comes you will be ineffective, you would be better off with pepper spray or mace, maybe a bat
    Best post thus far

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
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    Quote Originally Posted by 49er View Post
    solus,--snipped--and take your ramblings back to your own state's forum.
    Be advised - No has leave to suggest/direct that others must post in only their home state sub-forum.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    49er, i'm sorry, but the OP's initial query doesn't have anything to do with advancing the defence of anybody's right to bear arms for defence nor did any of your out of context legalized responses.

    the OP bought a gun because of a emotionally charged ******* contest over, SOD, Dogs, self defense, and potential consequences! The firearm, which the OP specifically states he has no knowledge of how to use, only shot extremely few rounds through it to pass his ccw live fire exercise, as well as specifically stating he hopes never to use it, wants to know from you advocates of self defence if he can carry it on his neighbour's property to 'discuss' the issues that are bothering him.

    49er, you assist the post's conversation by spouting off partial context covering case law that you perceive is relevant about self defence, instead of, perhaps being an good and concerned AL citizen at the OP's light and pointing to AL Statute 3-6-1 which could resolve or mitigate his issues with his neighbours w/o further arms escalation between them. (which would preclude any type of self defence claims by either one of them in the future)

    marshual, your discerning the OP's 'summary' was 'well written' bothers me ~ can you tell me what the OP's goal of writing the 'summary' was? what was the conclusion the neighbour is suppose to take away from the myriad of OP's topics presented? which one topic should the neighbour work on fixing first to mitigate the OP's issue(s)? my bet was on the trespass of the neighbour's partner, no, the sod, darn so hard to decide.

    As i have consistently stated: why on earth would any citizen put themselves in harm's way and passively/aggressively by seeking a mode where someone must exercise your self defence rights; why would you knowingly put yourself in the path for judicial oversight for your actions caused by the first statement.

    sorry, it is surely a lose/lose situation for both parties, especially if it continues to escalate with both carrying firearms.

    IMHO, the OP posted out here to validate his thinking that his carrying a firearm over to his neighbour's property 'to discuss things' is justified by this group of gun carriers in his quest for justice for the SOD, Dogs, etc.. If you wish to condone his perception(s), then please you are of course allowed, it that is your opinion.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 08-26-2014 at 12:00 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/akitas.html

    Akita is a dangerous breed if not trained properly.

    You will recall that I only called animal control after you informed me that you were unwilling to make any material changes to address the safety issue of your akitas.
    I'd be taking extra measures too.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ...

    ipse
    https://www.animallaw.info/statute/a...juring-persons
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ...specifically stating he hopes never to use it...
    I've said the same thing before. Would you prefer he bought it with the express intent of shooting their dog? Or perhaps only people who write "manifestos" of which you approve ought to arm themselves in the face of uncontrolled, deadly animals?

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