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Thread: Veterans, mental health and guns

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Veterans, mental health and guns

    Since we have our very own headcase here at OCDO and we all have to deal with his sock puppets and bipolar behavior, I feel the need to ask a question. Do veterans need a better inpatient mental health system? It would seem to me that some are very far gone from reality and their childish outbursts and obsessive harassment indicate a self destructive pattern that will likely end up in their eventual death. Cyber stalking often turns I to real stalking and in a state (take Wisconsin for example) 1/3 of adults are armed or gun owners. I would hate to see any mentally ill man locked up and thus deprived of his rights based on a possible premature assumption that they are a danger to themselves, so at what point do you guys think forced intervention should be taken?

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    Vets should have their mental issues treated like everyone else ... VA hospitals need no long exist.

    Then they'll get any help they need like everybody else-quicker and better than the VA.

    Only people wishing to die go to the VA if they can help it.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Vets should have their mental issues treated like everyone else ... VA hospitals need no long exist.



    Then they'll get any help they need like everybody else-quicker and better than the VA.



    Only people wishing to die go to the VA if they can help it.
    Or people looking for a $525 federal citation for doing the slurp and slide at the pop tabs lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Or people looking for a $525 federal citation for doing the slurp and slide at the pop tabs lol
    Please explain the "slurp and slide at the pop tabs" as I'm not a veteran and only been visiting a VA hospital once or twice in my life.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Please explain the "slurp and slide at the pop tabs" as I'm not a veteran and only been visiting a VA hospital once or twice in my life.

    it's when you don't pay for your Pepsi refill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    it's when you don't pay for your Pepsi refill.
    gotcha!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Vets should have their mental issues treated like everyone else ... VA hospitals need no long exist.

    Then they'll get any help they need like everybody else-quicker and better than the VA.

    Only people wishing to die go to the VA if they can help it.
    Your post is pure BS. Not all of the VAMCs are subpar, one in particular is the Minneapolis VAMC. It is a very good facility including the Spinal cord injury and disorder portion which is top notch. Been there many times as an outpatient and inpatient in SCID.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    Your post is pure BS. Not all of the VAMCs are subpar, one in particular is the Minneapolis VAMC. It is a very good facility including the Spinal cord injury and disorder portion which is top notch. Been there many times as an outpatient and inpatient in SCID.

    D.I.D. doesn't come from your spine sillypants

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Since we have our very own headcase here at OCDO and we all have to deal with his sock puppets and bipolar behavior, I feel the need to ask a question. Do veterans need a better inpatient mental health system? It would seem to me that some are very far gone from reality and their childish outbursts and obsessive harassment indicate a self destructive pattern that will likely end up in their eventual death. Cyber stalking often turns I to real stalking and in a state (take Wisconsin for example) 1/3 of adults are armed or gun owners. I would hate to see any mentally ill man locked up and thus deprived of his rights based on a possible premature assumption that they are a danger to themselves, so at what point do you guys think forced intervention should be taken?
    Kind of threw a few kitchen sinks in there, didn't you?

    I have a raft of candidates for "our own headcase here at OCDO ... [with] sock puppets [and] bipolar behavior. There's no need to narrow it down, as it is not really that important to decide who it might be.

    As for your first question - IMHO yes, veterans need a better inpatient MH system - just like non-vets do. Even the full private pay systems need improving.

    Thank you for parroting all the BS about needing to lock people up in case they are thinking about doing something. With friends like you .....

    At what point should forced intervention be taken? Not until the law says so. Not one second earlier. I also think there should be more frequent reviews of the person's status for continued involuntary commitment and a better methodology for appealijng the medical and legal findings behind the decision for involuntary commitment.

    I also think the folks who run the lottery should just give all thje money to me without making me have to first guess all the right numbers and then go buy a ticket. The chances of that happening are about as good as seeing some really meaningful (as opposed to cosmetic and responding to unfounded paranoid PSH) changes in the VA, te public, or the private MH treatment systems.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    D. I. D. is Dissociative Identity Disorder. There was announced today a great advance in understanding the genetics of schizophrenia.

    So, about court ordered intervention, when a court orders medication or "no weapons," is the termination of the requirement necessarily entered into the record as the requirement was?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    D. I. D. is Dissociative Identity Disorder. There was announced today a great advance in understanding the genetics of schizophrenia.

    So, about court ordered intervention, when a court orders medication or "no weapons," is the termination of the requirement necessarily entered into the record as the requirement was?
    i'm sorry, how did this dissociative disorder coupled with genetic discoveries of schizophrenia fit together with veterans who normally are not diagnosed with either of these disorders.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i'm sorry, how did this dissociative disorder coupled with genetic discoveries of schizophrenia fit together with veterans who normally are not diagnosed with either of these disorders. ipse
    Non-veteran OPie's broadbrush accusation and "D.I.D. doesn't come from your spine" retort. Schizophrenia and DID are co-morbidities.


    http://www.aaimedicine.org/journal-o...32-02-0071.pdf
    Last edited by Nightmare; 07-22-2014 at 08:54 PM.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Being crazy is not against the law...yet. Acts could violate the law and then being crazy could mitigate hard time in the Big House. Because shrinks are given almost god like powers based on their schooling by the state any allegation could get your gun rights terminated, you being involuntarily confined, loss of employment, social and familial negative outcomes.

    If you violate the law have your attorney claim that you were/are crazy, until then being thought of as a loon harms no one.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    D.I.D. doesn't come from your spine sillypants
    The post I responded to was NOT D.I.D. specific in totality. READ the last sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Since we have our very own headcase here at OCDO and we all have to deal with his sock puppets and bipolar behavior, I feel the need to ask a question. Do veterans need a better inpatient mental health system? ..................................so at what point do you guys think forced intervention should be taken?
    First....I am not fond of being called a "headcase" by anyone, but sticks and stones.

    I see a VA MH provider due to a TBI gifted to me during my Military service. One of the mandatory questions at each session is "have you considered suicide since our last meeting?" I always answer "no", and continue with, "Why do you think I would tell you anyway?" She knows that I am always armed (except while I am in the VA) and consistently verifies my sanity. A doctor with fewer ethics would have the ability to take my weapons from me with just a sentence. Too, too much power in one persons hands.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Non-veteran OPie's broadbrush accusation and "D.I.D. doesn't come from your spine" retort. Schizophrenia and DID are co-morbidities.

    http://www.aaimedicine.org/journal-o...32-02-0071.pdf
    hate when you completely misinterpret a journal of insurance medicine, no less, probably not even peer reviewed. nor where in the article did the authors indicate the two disorders are comorbid conditions.
    quote: controversy exists concerning the differential diagnosis, which may include many other mental disorders such as bipolar disorder with rapid cycling, anxiety disorders, somatizationion disorders, personality disorders, and psychotic disorders. unquote

    yes psychotic disorders is the overarching criteria for schizophrenia but one of many...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    why limit this discussion to only veteran's requiring better mental health care and realign ourselves instead to flat out stating, once and for all, the mental health system in the US is and has been broken since Johnson's great society was rolled out.

    the stigmatization of those in our nation w/mental health issues and who seek treatment is appalling and it is even worse in the military realm...

    Wimwag, your ignorance & insensitive comment assists in fostering & perpetuating that stigmatization and i am afraid truth be known, in the future, even you might require psychotherapy for some DSM 5 disorder. hopefully if you do seek professional assistance when you need it, be after a death within your familial circle, job loss, illness, etc., your network of friends as well as your mental health professional won't exhibit the same frivolous and insensitive rhetoric BS.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    I love watching Doug hang himself.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Its amazing how many licensed psychiatrists are members if OCDO

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Its amazing how many licensed psychiatrists are members if OCDO
    i am sure wimwag it is due to the moderator(s) positive consideration to assure you and others of your ilk remain coherent and on any psychotropic meds that have been locally prescribed.

    interestingly you did not respond to my statement.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 07-26-2014 at 07:38 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franky View Post
    your post is pure bs. Not all of the vamcs are subpar, one in particular is the minneapolis vamc. It is a very good facility including the spinal cord injury and disorder portion which is top notch. Been there many times as an outpatient and inpatient in scid.
    lol.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    D. I. D. is Dissociative Identity Disorder. There was announced today a great advance in understanding the genetics of schizophrenia.

    So, about court ordered intervention, when a court orders medication or "no weapons," is the termination of the requirement necessarily entered into the record as the requirement was?
    I notice that nobody has yet responded to your very appropriate question.

    In general, the answer is "Yes". In general, unless the court sets a certain (meaning specific) epiration date to its order, it takes a subsequent order by that court or a higher one to terminate the original order. Ex parte emergency restraining orders are probably the best example of orders that are time-limited - usually because the legislation authorizing them has set that time limitation.

    And to take your question a step further - even if a court releases someone from involuntary commitment (which in many jurisdictions now includes involuntary outpatient and sometimes "voluntary to avoid involuntary") there will remain a restriction on keeping and bearing arms.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Thanks.

    We'll wait and see if our correspondent that inspired the question weighs in. We may investigate the proper uses of the public record.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    I took a lot of time reading over this thread. Even idiots say something important on occasion, and they don't even know it. Did all these military that served in a combat roll returned with some mental issues? I'm not talking about a different outlook on life. I have a number of friends that served in Vietnam. Knowing them before and after that experience they clearly reflected a change in values and usually a better understanding of their rights. They would admit that it took a couple of years to not react to those sounds that occur in normal everyday life of which those same sounds caused alarm in combat.

    My question is this, what percentage of combat vets have true mental issues? And what caused the problem; IED or change in attitude?

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    I am sure color of law, starting off your post with an opening commentary using the term ‘ idiots’ is conducive to being taken seriously but the benefit of doubt is extended to respond to your invaluable query:

    The problem with a response is you need to understand this is not a new phenomenon manifesting for those who serve in battle. Examination of medical records from those served in the civil war through our current modern conflicts shows it has existed possibly hundreds of years.

    Unfortunately, it is a complex situation since each individual serving is a unique entity, each coming from a different background, e.g., rural, urban, poverty, prosperity, hunter, non-hunter, ad nausm

    As such, a generalization towards ‘what percentage’ is an incorrect methodology as there are some individuals who bear the burden w/o any outward manifestation of the horrors the individual endured in their dealing with the trauma of combat, and loss of comrades/friends, or even the ‘OMG what have I done to the enemy’ of ‘shell shock,’ or as the term is called today ‘PTSD”. Go ask a WWII/Korea conflict survivor about their experience(s) and you will soon discern they do not wish to articulate their experiences as they have come to terms with their own mental anguish.

    There are others who manifest their mental discomfort from being exposed to the trauma of conflict immediately ~ these are the folk we hear about on the news.

    Why the differences? Mental health professionals have no idea.

    Now, my perception of the crux of your query:
    1) Remember, there is no base line of the individual’s psyche prior to being sent into a conflict situation; consequently if a person believes their mental capacity is altered from being in a conflict, then it has been and therefore requires assistance. Mental health professionals have no way to ascertain if the individual mentally stable before going let alone how to put humpty back together again.

    2) There is no specific trigger identified which causes any specific individual to become mentally unstable and suffer PTSD after a specific conflict related incident. Some, as mentioned, walk around after doing their ‘own’ mental adjusting’ while others require extensive assistance using psychotherapy, psychometric medicines, and so forth.

    Finally, the stigma keeps a lot from seeking assistance as well as the side effects of the psychometric med.

    the science of neuroscience is one of the greatest boons in assisting in research of mental disorders as well as identification of viable psychometric treatment to assist those who are suffering from the trauma of conflicts.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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