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The Rising Backlash Against ANY Type of Open Carry -- If Not ALL Types

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
LOL - then how is it that I reply here?

Er... You send morse code via telegraph, where it's automatically read by a teletype interpreter. That code is sent over wire to the IRS, the last existing institution on Earth with the Sperry Univac. The code is translated into machine language by the Univac and sent to an IBM PC, which encapsulates it in XMODEM packets for uploading to a node on the Internet. That node strips the message, finds OCDO, logs in, and pastes your message as you.

What I want to know is why it takes 90 years to receive a reply from you? :monkey

Frequently my responses are designed to draw out people - has the added benefit of lightening my load too :p

Amen.
 
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Cava3r4

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Messages
51
Location
Scottsdale
gunowners are "shooting themselves in the foot".
We've had a few occasions out here in Phoenix where some idiot thinks they have to carry their AR "at the ready" position when they go into starbucks, target, and the da*ned airport.
Gimme a break!! I have no problems with someone carrying their rifle, sub machine gun, machine gun, or whatever in the "sling carry". But when you carry like you are "point man", all you do is create "bad press" for the rest of us.
As a firearm person both CCW and OC, I would NOT like to be sitting in (you name the place) having a cup of coffee or whatever and some DICK has to walk in like he is going to SHOOT.
it is JUST NOT polite.
What is so hard to understand?
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
How do we know when our behavior is welcomed? When people give us pizza, gift cards, honks, waves, thumbs up, money/cash, hollars, ammo nearly every time that we have a walk? When the police come by and say thanks for what you're doing? When a restaurant manager says sure, come on in, even with your rifles?

I'd venture to guess that OCT has received more public support (edit: and LEA support) in the short time they've been an organization, while OCing rifles, than the vast majority of the members of this forum have received while OCing handguns. We do not employ "in your face" tactics.

Anyone can write a blog, and they can pretty much say whatever they like. This is the internet, after all. If you make your way to Texas in the next few months, or perhaps even next few years, try to find a local OCT walk or meetup and go see for yourself... I seriously doubt you'd walk away with any significant criticisms...
 
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twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
gunowners are "shooting themselves in the foot".
We've had a few occasions out here in Phoenix where some idiot thinks they have to carry their AR "at the ready" position when they go into starbucks, target, and the da*ned airport.

I remember those idiots your talking about. :p
temp-33.jpg
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I remember those idiots your talking about...

U.S. Airports are clearly not the hotbeds of activity we saw on city streets in Iraq and Afghanistan.

How do we know when our behavior is welcomed? When people give us pizza, gift cards, honks, waves, thumbs up, money/cash, hollars, ammo nearly every time that we have a walk? When the police come by and say thanks for what you're doing? When a restaurant manager says sure, come on in, even with your rifles?

I'd venture to guess that OCT has received more public support (edit: and LEA support) in the short time they've been an organization, while OCing rifles, than the vast majority of the members of this forum have received while OCing handguns. We do not employ "in your face" tactics.

Anyone can write a blog, and they can pretty much say whatever they like. This is the internet, after all. If you make your way to Texas in the next few months, or perhaps even next few years, try to find a local OCT walk or meetup and go see for yourself... I seriously doubt you'd walk away with any significant criticisms...

Well said, stealthyeliminator. And you're undoubtedly right in that the vast majority of OCT meets aren't in-your-face events. The problem with media coverage, however, is they don't care. They paint things as if it were, merely because you're OCing long guns instead of handguns. As I've stated twice before, I have no issues with people OCing long guns.

Repeat: I have no issues with people OCing long guns.

I do, however, have issues with the media spinning it as unfavorable and detrimental to all forms of carry, as that does come back to haunt us all. Bloomburg's team of well-funded neanderthals pick up on it as well, and have flooded businesses around the U.S. with information and flyers designed to create enmity in the minds of businesses. They're responding with actions ranging from "politely asking customers to leave their firearms in their vehicles" to putting up "No Firearms" signs.

That does affect me, even though it's in part the result of long-gun OC down in Texas. Thanks, modern media.

The reason I started this thread is because we're not being smart about this. "Work smarter, not harder" is a great motto, provided you don't just pay it lip service. If the lawful actions of one group of individuals adversely impacts another, and is trending towards adversely impacting the originating group as well, is that wise? Is it beneficial to the cause we share? Are the long-term consequences worth the short-term gains.

Whether we ask ourselves these questions or not, each and every time we open carry, we make an impression with the public, and impression which can indeed come back to haunt us. Saying, "I should have known better" five years from now serves no useful purpose if we could have prevented a backlash today by working smarter instead of harder.

Learning the impact of your actions on the public at large is absolutely critical to winning long-term, because like it or not, that's the public who elects the government who makes the laws. As Obama has made abundantly clear, he holds our Constitution and even Congress in the highest disdain, and would attempt to run our nation (into the ground) by executive fiat if the rest of government allowed him to do so. Imagine if Obama had even 10% greater support in the House and Senate. That's all the tipping point he would need to get away with disregarding the Constitution and passing sweeping anti-gun legislation. Is that what you want? To help tip the voting public's mind unfavorably to the point where it comes back to bite not only the rest of us, but yourselves as well?

Certainly we want avoid that, not at all costs, but certainly at reasonable cost, as the cost of stepping into that mess would be all too high. It would involve the erosion of the many advances we've made over the last three decades with respect to gun rights.

Until the Second Amendment's clear provision for Constitutional Carry is recognized by all for precisely what it is, the tide can easily be turned against us. While the local impression with that store owner who invites you in may indeed be favorable, the impression at the national level may be seriously different, and detrimental to the rights of others.

Hopefully, you're not one of those throwbacks who just doesn't give a crap about anyone but themselves, as those are usually the ones who wind up loosing the most rights in the long run. Along with everyone else, of course.
 

NMOCr

Regular Member
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
41
Location
NM
You have to play the liberal game

You have to play the same game that liberals are playing. They sue business's for racism and equal protection under the 14th amendment. They sue under the american's with disabilities act. You have to scream "discrimination" EVERY TIME a business tells you to leave and follow it up in court, phone calls, petitions to that business, etc. Walking down the street to the next business that does the same thing is the exact trap they want us to do. I don't like it but being nice is getting our rear ends handed to us.

For several years, I've recognized the fact that carriers of rifles and other long arms often complain they have no other way to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. While may be true, their tactics to gain attention are getting the wrong kind of attention, and that attention has adversely affected myself and others. Specifically, the bank with which I've done business for 4+ years while OCing has recently asked their security guards to "request" customers leave iron in their cars. Jimmy Johns, a sandwich shop into which I've OC'd a dozen times, asked me not to carry in their stores.

In the last month alone, I hear increasingly negative complaints from businesses about all types of exercising of our Second Amendment rights, and that rising tide of counter-gun sentiment has hit the wild amplification of news channels. We won a significant victory in the summer of 2013 when we deposed two state legislators who blatantly disregarded their constituents when they shoved Colorado's gun laws down our throats. I watched the presentations live, and half a dozen legislators flat-out lied in open discussion, some with missing information, but many with such a load of crap it can only have come from a single source, completely made up, and wholly contrary to the FBI Crime Statistics Database and countless other studies indicating the exact opposite of what the liberal/democrat legislators were shoveling across the floor of Capitol Building in Denver last year. Supported in large part by Bloomberg, of course.

Fortunately, Morse and Giron are gone. It's a shame we can't bar Bloomberg from any and all activities or actions having to do with the State of Colorado, but hey...

Unfortunately, as well-explained by this blog article, the actions of long-gun carrying Constitutional brethren is being negatively amplified by our traditionally uber-liberal mainstream media, and is having a very deleterious impact.

Put simply, we are ALL being hung out to dry.

Don't get me wrong: I am ALL for right to keep and bear arms, regardless of the type of carry or the type of arms. What I refuse to support, however, is stupidity, and the flagrant "in your face" approach has always been stupid, regardless of the cause.

I see this as a matter best fought in courts of law, as well as the court of public opinion, persuaded by exceptional and welcomed behavior, rather than tried, convicted, and hung in the courts of mainstream media because we were STUPID.
 

Rusty Young Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,548
Location
Árida Zona
gunowners are "shooting themselves in the foot".
We've had a few occasions out here in Phoenix where some idiot thinks they have to carry their AR "at the ready" position when they go into starbucks, target, and the da*ned airport.
Gimme a break!! I have no problems with someone carrying their rifle, sub machine gun, machine gun, or whatever in the "sling carry". But when you carry like you are "point man", all you do is create "bad press" for the rest of us.
As a firearm person both CCW and OC, I would NOT like to be sitting in (you name the place) having a cup of coffee or whatever and some DICK has to walk in like he is going to SHOOT.
it is JUST NOT polite.
What is so hard to understand?

I understand about carrying "at the ready"; my gripe is with your mention of the airport.
Are you referring to the recent arrest of a man for muzzle sweeping while setting down his shoulder-slung, or was there an occurrence of an AR carried at Phoenix Sky Harbor "at the ready"?
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
You have to play the same game that liberals are playing. They sue business's for racism and equal protection under the 14th amendment. They sue under the american's with disabilities act. You have to scream "discrimination" EVERY TIME a business tells you to leave and follow it up in court, phone calls, petitions to that business, etc. Walking down the street to the next business that does the same thing is the exact trap they want us to do. I don't like it but being nice is getting our rear ends handed to us.

You made a good point. If more and more businesses keep putting us off, always walking down the street to the next one will sooner or late find us running out of businesses. Clearly, this alone is an imperfect response.

It must be coupled with systematic desensitization, public relations, and public education. Even then success isn't assured, as the forces at work to disarm the general public are quite powerful. America is truly the first modern nation on Earth to avoid this mistake. Let's hope we can continue to avoid it.
 

PeterNSteinmetz

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
177
Location
Tempe, Arizona
It must be coupled with systematic desensitization, public relations, and public education.

Ok, good point. And what have people here done recently to help with that ? And what should be done next here in Phoenix?
 
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PeterNSteinmetz

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
177
Location
Tempe, Arizona
There's a threshold well-known to those who study organizational behavior, below which if we increasingly exercise our rights, it will serve to familiarize others, but above which it does more harm than good.

That threshold changes over time, but it changes at it's own pace, not ours.

If we push from below the threshold, it changes in our favor, until we're all carrying openly again, everywhere. Well, not quite, but close.

If we push while above that threshold, the opposite happens, and resistance increases faster than acceptance.

This also sounds very interesting and important to the topic at hand. Can you provide some links or citations for further study?

Thanks .
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
You made a good point. If more and more businesses keep putting us off, always walking down the street to the next one will sooner or late find us running out of businesses. Clearly, this alone is an imperfect response.

It must be coupled with systematic desensitization, public relations, and public education. Even then success isn't assured, as the forces at work to disarm the general public are quite powerful. America is truly the first modern nation on Earth to avoid this mistake. Let's hope we can continue to avoid it.
It is not the forces at work that is the problem, it is the enforcers who are the problem. It is patently obvious that "shall not be infringed" mean exactly what is says, yet some cops, and in some jurisdictions, all cops, will infringe at the drop of a hat.

When the enforcers inform their masters that they will not be infringing then the forces at work will most likely need to find other avenues to entertain themselves, like raising taxes.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
There's a threshold well-known to those who study organizational behavior, below which if we increasingly exercise our rights, it will serve to familiarize others, but above which it does more harm than good.

That threshold changes over time, but it changes at it's own pace, not ours.

If we push from below the threshold, it changes in our favor, until we're all carrying openly again, everywhere. Well, not quite, but close.

If we push while above that threshold, the opposite happens, and resistance increases faster than acceptance.

Is that from the book called, "The Tipping Point"?
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
OCing either a rifle or a handgun takes BALLS, I don't care what anyone says. If you're afraid of the consequences, you shouldn't do it. You have to accept the consequences - ******* people off, some uncomfortability in town in certain spots, people not understanding, knowing your rights and being aware enough to defend yourself to LEO should you ever encounter them. That's just life.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
OCing either a rifle or a handgun takes BALLS, I don't care what anyone says. If you're afraid of the consequences, you shouldn't do it. You have to accept the consequences - ******* people off, some uncomfortability in town in certain spots, people not understanding, knowing your rights and being aware enough to defend yourself to LEO should you ever encounter them. That's just life.
Explain that to women, who normally have less testosterone than men.

Nothing wrong with having some fear/concern. Do your home work and proceed armed with knowledge.

Being afraid, yet still continuing, is a particular state of grace.
 

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
Wowwie!!!

Explain that to women, who normally have less testosterone than men.

Nothing wrong with having some fear/concern. Do your home work and proceed armed with knowledge.

Being afraid, yet still continuing, is a particular state of grace.

Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and guns and the Truth. God Bless US Bitter Clingers. Confess Faith, be ready, be shriven.

A giant " He11 Yeah!!!" to both of these posts!!!

Oh yeah, and,,, Brave, is being scared as he11, but saddling up anyway!
 
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