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Thread: Question about hypothetical vehicle stop by LEO

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Question about hypothetical vehicle stop by LEO

    Suppose your license was rendered invalid (revoked, suspended, expired etc etc) so that you are no longer allowed to operate a motor vehicle on public roads... During this time you let a friend borrow your car registered in your name. Cop pulls them over and releases them after finding out they are not the person registered to the vehicle...

    Is the fact that a car is registered/owned by a person who is not allowed to drive enough RAS/PC to pull over the vehicle lawfully, or does the cop need particularized suspicion concerning the person actually driving? Would that stop have been unlawful, simply the cop hoping to catch someone even though they don't have a reason to believe the prohibited driver is the actual driver at that moment other than they own the vehicle?
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    Suppose your license was rendered invalid (revoked, suspended, expired etc etc) so that you are no longer allowed to operate a motor vehicle on public roads... During this time you let a friend borrow your car registered in your name. Cop pulls them over and releases them after finding out they are not the person registered to the vehicle...

    Is the fact that a car is registered/owned by a person who is not allowed to drive enough RAS/PC to pull over the vehicle lawfully, or does the cop need particularized suspicion concerning the person actually driving? Would that stop have been unlawful, simply the cop hoping to catch someone even though they don't have a reason to believe the prohibited driver is the actual driver at that moment other than they own the vehicle?
    That, from what I have learned, varies from state to state.

    Washington it is PC for a stop, but if you say that the vehicle is not yours when they ask, they cannot take the stop any farther.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    That, from what I have learned, varies from state to state.

    Washington it is PC for a stop, but if you say that the vehicle is not yours when they ask, they cannot take the stop any farther.
    Mass is similar. Can stop and ID operator. Does seem to vary state by state.

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    OP can start here...http://scholar.google.com/

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Trolling plates...anti-liberty to the nth degree.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Allowed in our state.

    A travesty of the fourth, Or Article 1 section 7 of our state.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    I would think any state that would allow such a thing would be in violation of Terry - RAS.

    Owning and licensing a motor vehicle has no correlation to having a driver/operator license. If that were the case Avis and Hertz rental car would need a driver license. Have you ever seen a corporation take a driver test?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    It gets worse. I had to renew my License and they made me retake my picture because my old one interferes with facial recognition software!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Why possess a drivers license at all. Unless driving for commercial purposes only.

    Do not enter into any contract with DMV.. Do not surrender natural rights for a privilege.

    My .02

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Why possess a drivers license at all. Unless driving for commercial purposes only.

    Do not enter into any contract with DMV.. Do not surrender natural rights for a privilege.

    My .02

    CCJ
    I agree on principle and by law. I can't afford to fight the violent coercion of the state at this juncture alone. Now if even 20% of my state refused, I am on board, there would be noway for the state to process it, no way to find juries that would convict.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I agree on principle and by law. I can't afford to fight the violent coercion of the state at this juncture alone. Now if even 20% of my state refused, I am on board, there would be noway for the state to process it, no way to find juries that would convict.
    SVG

    I can only suggest that you reread your signature. U.S. v Minker.. The truth will indeed set you free.
    Best regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Trolling plates...anti-liberty to the nth degree.
    Get a vanity plate like; 88B8BB8

    http://www.hilariousheadlines.com/wp...se-plate-9.jpg
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 07-24-2014 at 12:40 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    SVG

    I can only suggest that you reread your signature. U.S. v Minker.. The truth will indeed set you free.
    Best regards

    CCJ
    Touche!

    I am free minded but involuntarily enslaved, is it by my own fears, more than likely.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Trolling plates...anti-liberty to the nth degree.
    The LEOs use a machine to scan plates as they drive thru parking lots.

    https://www.aclu.org/alpr

    http://pvpost.com/2014/04/16/error-f...attorney-26688

    http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...plate-readers/
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    http://rt.com/usa/license-scanners-p...-database-046/

    Automated license plate readers used by car repo companies, for example, collect billions of personal records per year, which contribute to vast databases that can be used by law enforcement, insurance companies, banks, and the like, with few limits.

    BetaBoston, working with the Boston Globe, detailed one Boston repo company’s data collection abilities, reporting that New England Associates Inc. can collect $200 to $400 for each vehicle found by an automated reader attached to an unmarked car. The company says it can typically add 8,000 license plate scans to its database in Texas each day.



    Yes, there could be an avenue for abuse...........................YA THINK???
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    There is no requirement that the driver of a vehicle be the registered owner of that vehicle. What is the pretext of the stop? A possible unlicensed driver? Is this PC to stop the vehicle? If there is no observed motor vehicle violation, what is the justification to demand DL once the vehicle is stopped? Trolling for revenue? trolling to pad a arrest record? Trolling for a promotion?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    There is no requirement that the driver of a vehicle be the registered owner of that vehicle. What is the pretext of the stop? A possible unlicensed driver? Is this PC to stop the vehicle? If there is no observed motor vehicle violation, what is the justification to demand DL once the vehicle is stopped? Trolling for revenue? trolling to pad a arrest record? Trolling for a promotion?

    +1

    Here I believe they must still visually see if you fit the description. Happened to me.

    Don't make it right though.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  18. #18
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    There is no requirement that the driver of a vehicle be the registered owner of that vehicle. What is the pretext of the stop? A possible unlicensed driver? Is this PC to stop the vehicle? If there is no observed motor vehicle violation, what is the justification to demand DL once the vehicle is stopped? Trolling for revenue? trolling to pad a arrest record? Trolling for a promotion?
    Yes. It is RAS/PC to a stop. As long as the operator reasonably matches description. Male owner with a suspended license and you see a female driver then no go. Male owner and male driving then can stop and check because its reasonable to believe that the owner of said vehicle is driving the vehicle that he.... Well.... Owns.

    I'm assuming it varies state by state as to whether or not you can then check operator for license/papers.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It gets worse. I had to renew my License and they made me retake my picture because my old one interferes with facial recognition software!
    In NJ, no smiling allowed on DL photo... Sheeple pay $46.00 for a license, then they are not allow to smile on said license photo.. Talk about oppressing..

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Yes. It is RAS/PC to a stop. As long as the operator reasonably matches description. Male owner with a suspended license and you see a female driver then no go. Male owner and male driving then can stop and check because its reasonable to believe that the owner of said vehicle is driving the vehicle that he.... Well.... Owns.

    I'm assuming it varies state by state as to whether or not you can then check operator for license/papers.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    That's why when I purchase a car it's placed in a trust. No natural persons name is attached to the car.

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Yes. It is RAS/PC to a stop. As long as the operator reasonably matches description. Male owner with a suspended license and you see a female driver then no go. Male owner and male driving then can stop and check because its reasonable to believe that the owner of said vehicle is driving the vehicle that he.... Well.... Owns.

    I'm assuming it varies state by state as to whether or not you can then check operator for license/papers.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    How do you know what the drive looks like?

    This is a interesting conversation, and I am learning. Yes, states may be/are different. This will prompt me to conduct research on my state laws regarding this specific topic.

    Thanks
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    How do you know what the owner looks like?

    This is a interesting conversation, and I am learning. Yes, states may be/are different. This will prompt me to conduct research on my state laws regarding this specific topic.

    Thanks
    Sorry
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  23. #23
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    How do you know what the drive looks like?

    This is a interesting conversation, and I am learning. Yes, states may be/are different. This will prompt me to conduct research on my state laws regarding this specific topic.

    Thanks
    Rmv photo. This is where some states vary. For example MA does provide RMV photo when plate is entered along with basic info of registered owner. So I click a tab and a color photo pops up. So how Snuffy has suspended license and 2 warrants (all info provided from plate). Pull up photo see yup snuffy is driving. Pull car over. Snuffy has suspended license and 2 warrants but i can see that its a 5'4 (can barely see over steering wheel) slender built young girl. Probably Joe snuffies daughter. If no motor vehicle offenses then no stopping car. Straight forward.

    Now sure this isn't fair to guys with suspended licenses and warrants I agree.



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    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    You driving behind a car with tinted windows that sports a plate indicating the registered owner has a issue. Can't see the driver from your position. Drive up next to them a take a look?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  25. #25
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    You driving behind a car with tinted windows that sports a plate indicating the registered owner has a issue. Can't see the driver from your position. Drive up next to them a take a look?
    Depends what the issue is. Expired license? No. Warrants? Yes. Or the other option is just to pull the car over for having obscured/ tinted windows. Find its not the person I'm looking for then verbal warning about the tint since its a very steep fine per window.

    Highly depends on the what the issue at hand is.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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