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Thread: Another good ruling

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Another good ruling

    DC ban on carry outside home unconstitutional. http://alangura.com/2014/07/victory-in-palmer-v-d-c/

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    The ruling - http://alangura.com/wp-content/uploa...CT_OPINION.pdf 149 KB 19 pages

    Case 1:09-cv-01482-FJS Document 51 Filed 07/26/14 Page 1 of 19
    UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
    ______________________________________________
    TOM G. PALMER, GEORGE LYON,
    EDWARD RAYMOND, AMY MCVEY,
    and SECOND AMENDMENT FOUNDATION,
    INC.,
    Plaintiffs,
    v.
    1:09-CV-1482
    (FJS)
    DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA and
    CATHY LANIER,
    Defendants.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    ....Accordingly, the Court grants Plaintiffs’ motion for summary judgment and enjoins Defendants from enforcing the home limitations of D.C. Code § 7-2502.02(a)(4) and enforcing D.C. Code § 22-4504(a) unless and until such time as the District of Columbia adopts a licensing mechanism consistent with constitutional standards enabling people to exercise their Second Amendment right to bear arms......Furthermore, this injunction prohibits the District from completely banning the carrying of handguns in public for self-defense by otherwise qualified non-residents based solely on the fact that they are not residents of the District.

    In simple terms this means what? As DC has no licensing system the bearing of arms is automatically allowed for DC residents and nonresidents alike? I'm afraid my knowledge of legal speak is minimal at best.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    In simple terms this means what? As DC has no licensing system the bearing of arms is automatically allowed for DC residents and nonresidents alike? I'm afraid my knowledge of legal speak is minimal at best.
    Given DC's in-your-face attitude, I would think little has changed in its law enforcement community. This attitude is sufficient reason that it should never be granted statehood.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Given DC's in-your-face attitude, I would think little has changed in its law enforcement community. This attitude is sufficient reason that it should never be granted statehood.
    *chuckles* D.C didnt learn after they got Kokesh'd awhile back. Few more like him and D.C would back off pretty quickly. This is perfect. The judge just backhand slapped them. Hit them again while they are still smarting.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    They mentioned Peruta a lot.

    I noticed the legal word wrangling again to try to make sure shall not be infringed doesn't really mean shall not be infringed.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    *chuckles* D.C didnt learn after they got Kokesh'd awhile back. Few more like him and D.C would back off pretty quickly. This is perfect. The judge just backhand slapped them. Hit them again while they are still smarting.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...d84_story.html

    A D.C. Superior Court judge Friday placed Adam Kokesh, the Fairfax County gun-rights advocate, on two years of probation in connection with an Independence Day incident in which he videotaped himself loading a shotgun in Freedom Plaza, near the White House.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    *chuckles* D.C didnt learn after they got Kokesh'd awhile back. Few more like him and D.C would back off pretty quickly. This is perfect. The judge just backhand slapped them. Hit them again while they are still smarting.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...d84_story.html

    A D.C. Superior Court judge Friday placed Adam Kokesh, the Fairfax County gun-rights advocate, on two years of probation in connection with an Independence Day incident in which he videotaped himself loading a shotgun in Freedom Plaza, near the White House.
    What is "kokeshed"? Getting arrested then pleading guilty and apologising to the judge for being dumb then getting a year probationary and fleeing for California?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    What is "kokeshed"? Getting arrested then pleading guilty and apologising to the judge for being dumb then getting a year probationary and fleeing for California?

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    I guess.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    In simple terms this means what? As DC has no licensing system the bearing of arms is automatically allowed for DC residents and nonresidents alike? I'm afraid my knowledge of legal speak is minimal at best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Given DC's in-your-face attitude, I would think little has changed in its law enforcement community. This attitude is sufficient reason that it should never be granted statehood.
    Tonight's VA-ALERT posting on this matter is pasted below.

    TFred




    VA-ALERT: YES!!!! DC Circuit Court knocks down DC ban on carry in public!

    And Liberty marches on - DC becomes a part of America again - at least for now.

    The Circuit Court in DC has just ruled in Palmer vs. DC that DC’s ban on the carry of handguns IN PUBLIC by citizens (both residents AND non-residents) is UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

    Better yet, they said DC cannot enforce their current ban AT ALL until such time as they pass a licensing scheme that allows citizens to fairly exercise their constitutional right to keep and bear arms!

    I’m not an attorney, and have not yet heard from our attorneys on this ruling, but it sure looks to me like I could drive to DC tonight and carry while I’m there. Not just concealed, but CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY - openly OR concealed!

    I am not suggesting anyone do so until we have some crystal clear clarity on this.

    I imagine that DC might appeal this verdict to the Supreme Court. We should know soon enough.

    Here is a link to the announcement on Arsenal Attorneys web site:

    http://tinyurl.com/ktdyar6

    DC Circuit Court Overturns Ban on Right to Carry Firearms

    Today, July 26, 2014, the Circuit Court of the District of Columbia has overturned the DC's ban on the carrying of firearms in public. An excerpt follows and the full opinion can be downloaded from the link below this blog entry.

    "In light of Heller, McDonald, and their progeny, there is no longer any basis on which this Court can conclude that the District of Columbia's total ban on the public carrying of ready-to-use handguns outside the home is constitutional under any level of scrutiny. Therefore, the Court finds that the District of Columbia's complete ban on the carrying of handguns in public is unconstitutional. Accordingly . . . the Court grants Plaintiffs' motion for summary judgment and enjoins Defendants from enforcing the home limitations of D.C. Code § 7-2502.02(a)(4) and enforcing D.C. Code § 22-4504(a) unless and until such time as the District of Columbia adopts a licensing mechanism consistent with constitutional standards enabling people to exercise their Second Amendment right to bear arms. Furthermore, this injunction prohibits the District from completely banning the carrying of handguns in public for self-defense by otherwise qualified non-residents based solely on the fact that they are not residents of the District."

    ------------------------------------------------------

    Here are the two code sections that have been STRUCK DOWN (first affects DC residents, second affects everyone, including Virginia residents):

    § 7-2502.02. Registration of certain firearms prohibited.

    (a) A registration certificate shall not be issued for a:



    (4) Pistol not validly registered to the current registrant in the District prior to September 24, 1976, except that the prohibition on registering a pistol shall not apply to:

    (A) Any organization that employs at least one commissioned special police officer or other employee licensed to carry a firearm and that arms the employee with a firearm during the employee's duty hours;

    (B) A police officer who has retired from the Metropolitan Police Department;

    (C) Any person who seeks to register a pistol for use in self-defense within that person's home; or

    (D) A firearms instructor, or an organization that employs a firearms instructor, for the purpose of conducting firearms training.

    -

    § 22-4504. Carrying concealed weapons; possession of weapons during commission of crime of violence; penalty.

    (a) No person shall carry within the District of Columbia either openly or concealed on or about their person, a pistol, or any deadly or dangerous weapon capable of being so concealed. Whoever violates this section shall be punished as provided in § 22-4515, except that:

    (1) A person who violates this section by carrying a pistol, or any deadly or dangerous weapon, in a place other than the person's dwelling place, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, shall be fined not more than the amount set forth in § 22-3571.01 or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both; or

    (2) If the violation of this section occurs after a person has been convicted in the District of Columbia of a violation of this section or of a felony, either in the District of Columbia or another jurisdiction, the person shall be fined not more than the amount set forth in § 22-3571.01 or imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Here’s a link to the ruling in PDF format (thanks to Arsenal Attorneys):

    http://tinyurl.com/lgr27yw

    A heartfelt thanks to the Second Amendment Foundation (saf.org) for bringing this suit and winning it!

    Now, who’s got the champagne?

  11. #11
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I guess.
    Lol ok... Thought it was just me who read that like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    What is "kokeshed"? Getting arrested then pleading guilty and apologising to the judge for being dumb then getting a year probationary and fleeing for California?

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    zing!!!

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...d84_story.html

    A D.C. Superior Court judge Friday placed Adam Kokesh, the Fairfax County gun-rights advocate, on two years of probation in connection with an Independence Day incident in which he videotaped himself loading a shotgun in Freedom Plaza, near the White House.
    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    What is "kokeshed"? Getting arrested then pleading guilty and apologising to the judge for being dumb then getting a year probationary and fleeing for California?

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    THIS is the DC cops getting Kokesh'd


    I'm only sorry he was so co-operative. He was arrested for violating a law that had no business being made and arguably wasnt even a true law. No gun control regulations are laws. I can't take the time to define law here but this afternoon I will make the case that much of the laws we follow today with regards to firearms actually have no real weight at all. The only thing that was dumb was apologising.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Pending final word from VDCL's attorney's, I sure hope that some freedom-loving Virginians will get together and open carry in D.C. as part of a pre-planned group picnic and/or stroll (safety in numbers). I'd love to see that, really love to see that!

    There needs to be some 'proof' that average persons can be armed in public in the District without the sky falling BEFORE the city council muddies up the current de facto constitutional carry status of our nation's capital.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    THIS is the DC cops getting Kokesh'd


    I'm only sorry he was so co-operative. He was arrested for violating a law that had no business being made and arguably wasnt even a true law. No gun control regulations are laws. I can't take the time to define law here but this afternoon I will make the case that much of the laws we follow today with regards to firearms actually have no real weight at all. The only thing that was dumb was apologising.
    "Breaking news right now.... That's the policy..." Lmao

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    My line of reasoning is this. If the Constitution is the highest law then no law can be made and certainly not legally enforced that goes against that Constitution. Furthermore if we the people are to control the government then it is we who dictate what we require and government must fall into line. The reason such ideas are so difficult is the people have allowed the government decades of over reach, power abuse and the slow but steady encroachment and infringement of our undeniable and unquestionable rights till we get to today. 1st, 2nd, 4th and even 5th Amendment rights are being violated all the time. Frankly i'm not interested in policy which has only the weight of tyranny and illegal enforcement behind it.

    We can take the country back by demanding the rights we already have and by doing so collectively. The more involved the less likely there will be loss of life and the faster government on every level will realize we won't tolerate the current behavior. The issue though is many if not most do tolerate it and it will be the undoing of America as we know it. If there isnt a total economic meltdown beforehand that is.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    THIS is the DC cops getting Kokesh'd


    I'm only sorry he was so co-operative. He was arrested for violating a law that had no business being made and arguably wasnt even a true law. No gun control regulations are laws. I can't take the time to define law here but this afternoon I will make the case that much of the laws we follow today with regards to firearms actually have no real weight at all. The only thing that was dumb was apologising.
    The violent coercion of the state is a powerful motivator to capitulate to it. Unlimited resources stolen from others compared to limited resources of the individual, don't take a genius to do the math.

    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    My line of reasoning is this. If the Constitution is the highest law then no law can be made and certainly not legally enforced that goes against that Constitution. Furthermore if we the people are to control the government then it is we who dictate what we require and government must fall into line. The reason such ideas are so difficult is the people have allowed the government decades of over reach, power abuse and the slow but steady encroachment and infringement of our undeniable and unquestionable rights till we get to today. 1st, 2nd, 4th and even 5th Amendment rights are being violated all the time. Frankly i'm not interested in policy which has only the weight of tyranny and illegal enforcement behind it.

    We can take the country back by demanding the rights we already have and by doing so collectively. The more involved the less likely there will be loss of life and the faster government on every level will realize we won't tolerate the current behavior. The issue though is many if not most do tolerate it and it will be the undoing of America as we know it. If there isnt a total economic meltdown beforehand that is.
    +1 Some would have Rosa Parks just follow "policy".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...d84_story.html

    A D.C. Superior Court judge Friday placed Adam Kokesh, the Fairfax County gun-rights advocate, on two years of probation in connection with an Independence Day incident in which he videotaped himself loading a shotgun in Freedom Plaza, near the White House.

    Would be a great time for Adam Kokesh to have his sentence vacated.
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    I'm fairly certain the 10 rd mag limit still applies, and might want to be mindful of the federal school zone law. Otherwise, until a stay is granted, I think it's game on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend73 View Post
    I'm fairly certain the 10 rd mag limit still applies, and might want to be mindful of the federal school zone law. Otherwise, until a stay is granted, I think it's game on.
    Interesting that at least for now, dreaded DC has Constitutional Carry but we don't.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend73 View Post
    I'm fairly certain the 10 rd mag limit still applies, and might want to be mindful of the federal school zone law. Otherwise, until a stay is granted, I think it's game on.
    Probably a stupid question, but does this mean that my double stack mag is illegal in its current form, loaded or unloaded? Or does this mean that I can only have 10 bullets in the mag (it's a .40 cal 12 rd. capacity mag?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Pending final word from VDCL's attorney's, I sure hope that some freedom-loving Virginians will get together and open carry in D.C. as part of a pre-planned group picnic and/or stroll (safety in numbers). I'd love to see that, really love to see that!

    There needs to be some 'proof' that average persons can be armed in public in the District without the sky falling BEFORE the city council muddies up the current de facto constitutional carry status of our nation's capital.
    I'm planning on taking the family up this weekend if they've not passed some crazy draconian new law in the interim. I don't have it in my budget to make the trip tonight.

    That said, if there is a VCDL gathering in DC, I'll be there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Probably a stupid question, but does this mean that my double stack mag is illegal in its current form, loaded or unloaded? Or does this mean that I can only have 10 bullets in the mag (it's a .40 cal 12 rd. capacity mag?)
    It's the magazine that's illegal, so no.

    I've read on other forums that the officer answering questions at MPD isn't sure if the magazine ban would apply to non-residents or not. I'd play it safe and carry a 1911.

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    VCDL should capitalize on this opportunity

    If anyone here is on the VCDL board, I think an event (meeting, supper, group sightseeing, whatever) in DC should be planned NOW. I think many of us would like to test the waters of DC given the current ruling, but are hesitant. There is strength in numbers and I am sure PVC would give the local police a heads up so as not to have a seen with the local residents and police. This would probably get some publicity for VCDL as well, although I am not sure that this should be made that big of a deal (with banners and such). Really, it should be us going about our daily lives. Maybe a picnic on the national mall? Or a guided bus tour through the city with 50 VCDL members carrying would work.

    Thoughts?

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