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Thread: Would you hesitate to use deadly force against a child?

  1. #1
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Would you hesitate to use deadly force against a child?

    The below link is a news story about 4 children, ages 11 to 13, that committed several burglaries and was found in possession of several handguns when arrested. The link below is them robbing an ice cream truck then pulling an air soft gun (I'm sure the trucks owner had no idea the gun was "fake") at the trucks owner when he gave chase. Most always picture the "boogie man" as a grown man, rough looking with a nasty scar on his left cheek. Odds are, non of us would hesitate to use deadly force against such a character. But what about when it's a kid, a pregnant woman or an elderly person that his/her dementia is making them act violently?

    I would like to think that I wouldn't allow myself to do a "double take" of a threat, but rather act the same way in the face of any threat. But are we keeping in mind that danger comes in all different sizes, ages and appearances?




    http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/L...268945911.html
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Without reading the linked story I can say that most likely useing deadly force in self defense against those kids (or at lest the one who pointed the gun) would be ruled as lawful. We are not required to distinguish betweem real firearms and toys/replicas. Generally the rule is what a "reasonable man" in that situation would have thought they were faced with.

    Some of us have experience (recent or ancient history - "before you were born, youngster") with kids coming up and doing harm. And then there are also the feral yutes out there.

    "Be polite to everyone you meet - and have a plan of how to kill them" is not just a cutesy saying.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Without reading the linked story I can say that most likely useing deadly force in self defense against those kids (or at lest the one who pointed the gun) would be ruled as lawful. We are not required to distinguish betweem real firearms and toys/replicas. Generally the rule is what a "reasonable man" in that situation would have thought they were faced with.

    Some of us have experience (recent or ancient history - "before you were born, youngster") with kids coming up and doing harm. And then there are also the feral yutes out there.

    "Be polite to everyone you meet - and have a plan of how to kill them" is not just a cutesy saying.

    stay safe.
    I absolutely agree with what you're saying, but I'm not speaking from a legal standpoint, but rather a "this isn't what I pictured in my mind of one day needing to kill" mindset. No doubt in my mind that under KY. law the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation, but would a person hesitate to use force based on the attackers age, size, appearance, etc?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Some of us have experience (recent or ancient history - "before you were born, youngster") with kids coming up and doing harm...........................
    "Be polite to everyone you meet - and have a plan of how to kill them" is not just a cutesy saying. stay safe.
    A threat is a threat. Some armed people will balk at defending themselves from the BG with the scar as much as they will from the 13 year old gangbanger. All of us, everyone, will react differently. Again, a threat is a threat. It is up to you, the wielder of the tool, to determine if DF is the option.


    On a side note........to comment on using DF (deadly force) on a "ute" publicly may not be advisable. Comments can be taken out of context or manipulated into something they are not.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    This is why I practice with 'No More Hesitation' targets.

  6. #6
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I agree, a threat is a threat. The OP is the argument the left tried to make about Treyvon Martin, he should not have been shot because of innocent looking several year old photos.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Anything that we say on here can be taken out of context. But that shouldn't stop us from having an open conversation and hopefully get others to thinking about the wide range of threats that they may face, and hopefully put more thought into preparing for them. I also agree that LAC's have been killed by the 30+ year old attacker because they hesitated. We all will react differently. But the vision of the "unlikely" attackers probably seldom cross our minds. Had this truck owner been armed and used deadly force on the kid, he may have been legally justified, but the media would have crucified him. But are we willing to let media backlash make us victims? I don't want to be killed by a 13 year old no more than I want to be killed by a 50 year old or a 95 year old granny on a walker.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The most I will say is a threat is a threat. If the unfortunate circumstances arise my posts to willingness to do anything other than the pure act of self defense would be used to crucify me.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The OP is the argument the left tried to make about Treyvon Martin, he should not have been shot because of innocent looking several year old photos.
    Not at all. The OP is are you accepting of the fact that you may one day be placed in this situation and can you act appropriately? Not "do nothing if the attackers appears to be under X age."
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Not at all. The OP is are you accepting of the fact that you may one day be placed in this situation and can you act appropriately? Not "do nothing if the attackers appears to be under X age."
    I have answered that clearly, I would treat a threat as a threat, that is all I need to say.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  11. #11
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I would treat a threat as a threat.
    As we all should.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Hesitation didn't work out too well in the Tacoma Mall shooting in 2005.

    Excerpts from an analysis of the Tyler Texas courthouse shooting and the Tacoma Mall shooting:
    A legally armed citizen, Brendan McKown, chose to intervene. He drew his 9mm pistol but did not fire. Instead, he verbally ordered Maldonado to put down his gun.

    By his own report, when he looked at the boyish Maldonado, he could not bring himself to take the shot. Instead, he chose to draw his gun and attempt to command Maldonado to drop his gun.

    Maldonado responded by firing four rounds into McKown’s torso. McKown survived his wounds but was grievously injured including a hit to the spine which may leave him unable to walk.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak56 View Post
    Hesitation didn't work out too well in the Tacoma Mall shooting in 2005.

    Excerpts from an analysis of the Tyler Texas courthouse shooting and the Tacoma Mall shooting:
    Great share. This is the point of my OP....does the appearance of the attacker(s) have a physiological affect on us? It seems the answer is yes. I bet that we have all convinced ourselves that we would not hesitate to engage a "rough looking bad guy", but what if the attacker has a "boyish" appearance? (or elderly, in a wheelchair, etc)
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    This is why I practice with 'No More Hesitation' targets.
    How do you get those? From what I've researched they are impossible to find now...

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    This is why I practice with 'No More Hesitation' targets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Javelina View Post
    How do you get those? From what I've researched they are impossible to find now...
    That's because you hesitated too long in getting them.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


    Talk to your cats about catnip - before it's too late.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javelina View Post
    How do you get those? From what I've researched they are impossible to find now...
    I buy mine in the paper isle at Wally World, they are called paper plates.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    I pray to God I am never put in this kind of position. I think I would rather take extra time and hope to survive than to act too quickly and find out some kid was messing around with a toy, and I took his life. But that is just me.

    I have lived a long time. NO I am not 100 years old, but I am past retirement age. There is something I have learned over the years, it doesn't matter what any of you think you will do, you won't know for sure until the time comes. After you have acted
    then I will pay attention to what you say you have done. I don't know about the rest of you but I have done several things I would like to take back. If I get my wish, this will be one thing I won't have to regret.

    I don't even want to think about this sort of thing.

  18. #18
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 56brd View Post
    I pray to God I am never put in this kind of position. I think I would rather take extra time and hope to survive than to act too quickly and find out some kid was messing around with a toy, and I took his life. But that is just me.

    I have lived a long time. NO I am not 100 years old, but I am past retirement age. There is something I have learned over the years, it doesn't matter what any of you think you will do, you won't know for sure until the time comes. After you have acted
    then I will pay attention to what you say you have done. I don't know about the rest of you but I have done several things I would like to take back. If I get my wish, this will be one thing I won't have to regret.

    I don't even want to think about this sort of thing.



    I see what you're saying and I also hope that I am never put in any situation that requires any degree of force. But not thinking about it (or talking about it) doesn't make it less likely to happen.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Children can be extremely dangerous when they start committing crimes. They do not have the maturity to think things through like an adult and are more than likely to shoot first and ask questions later.

    I will treat all armed threats as threats...at least that is my intention.

  20. #20
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    as WW has stated...a threat is a threat and as i have stated previously, if I reasonably believe i am personally threatened with serious bodily injury, death, or sexual assault, i will not intervene in the protection of others, but will appropriately engage in self defence activities for myself and my loved ones until such time as the threat has been mitigated.

    and WW you get your targets at the same place as i do...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 07-30-2014 at 12:26 AM.
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    I can agree with what all of you have said. Essentially a threat is a threat! When I sit back and really think about this, I'm afraid that I would hesitate when faced with the situation of using deadly force against a child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    <snip> But what about when it's a kid, a pregnant woman or an elderly person that his/her dementia is making them act violently?

    [/url]
    Sorry, but I'm not going to analyze why they are threatening ... that's for later for others to figure out...without my help.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javelina View Post
    How do you get those? From what I've researched they are impossible to find now...
    http://www.letargets.com/estylez_ps....~010100~010116

    these might help. LET is the company touting the "preggers" target last year.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member KRM59's Avatar
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    makes no difference

    I am sorry if this sounds cold or unfeeling, But it makes ( for me ) no difference as to age, sex or mental status, a threat is a threat. I have had engage young and old male and female, I did not give any consideration to anything but eliminating the threat.
    "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
    - George Mason

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