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Thread: D.C. announces intent to make permitting system “as restrictive as possible”

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    D.C. announces intent to make permitting system “as restrictive as possible”

    It was no surprise when a 90 day stay was granted in the case of Palmer v. D.C. And it should come as no surprise that D.C. is planning to use that time to make sure that whatever system ultimately results from the ruling is “as restrictive as possible.”


    Those are the exact words of D.C. Councilmember and mayoral candidate David Catania. But Councilmember Catania is not alone is his disregard for the rights of D.C. citizens.


    Councilmember Tommy Wells, chairman of the Committee on the Judiciary and Public Safety, indicated that the council is “going to prepare by working on legislation that will pass [constitutional] muster.” He indicated that he will be looking at Maryland’s restrictive may-issue law whose “good and substantial reason” requirement was upheld last year by the 4th Circuit in Woolard v. Gallagher.


    What would such a system mean for residents of the District? It would mean the same thing that it means for the residents of those states still suffering under a may-issue system … cronyism, discrimination, and an almost complete ban for those who are not politically connected. The poor need not apply.


    While no one can ultimately predict what will happen on October 22 when the stay ends, we can be sure that D.C. will do everything in their power to make sure that it is not in the best interests of gun owners.

    From The Law Office of John Pierce, Esq.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Say it ain't so!

    Who wudda thunk it.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Surprise! Surprise!
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    "restrictive as possible?" At least it won't be "infringed," though.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Goooooo North Korea !

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    John, can you suggest to whom and what we need to communicate regarding DC's intentions? Gura? NRA? GOA?

    What I read as Gura's acceptance of turning a RIGHT into a privilege really ticks me off.

    Your words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    John, can you suggest to whom and what we need to communicate regarding DC's intentions? Gura? NRA? GOA?

    What I read as Gura's acceptance of turning a RIGHT into a privilege really ticks me off.

    Your words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
    Lawyers only make $$$ off conflict....so his acceptance does not surprise me. He's not the pro-gunner people think that he is.

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    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    D.C. announces intent to make permitting system “as restrictive as possible”

    Here's my shocked face...........
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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shovelhead View Post
    D.C. announces intent to make permitting system “as restrictive as possible”

    Here's my shocked face...........
    This is my favorite...


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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Lawyers only make $$$ off conflict....so his acceptance does not surprise me. He's not the pro-gunner people think that he is.
    David,

    Gura is very pro gun. I have talked with him and seen his efforts for over seven years. He is THE pro gun lawyer we want fighting for our rights.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    David,

    Gura is very pro gun. I have talked with him and seen his efforts for over seven years. He is THE pro gun lawyer we want fighting for our rights.
    Hmmm. How do you explain his apparent acceptance of turning a RIGHT into a privilege? (in Woollard, Moore v Madigan, and this case)

    I've been in contact with another person who has known him over the years who said "He’s always been a little weak on the licensing thing. I remember that from DC v Heller", so you'll pardon me if I don't swoon at your interpretation of how "pro gun" he is.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Pierce View Post
    It was no surprise when a 90 day stay was granted in the case of Palmer v. D.C. And it should come as no surprise that D.C. is planning to use that time to make sure that whatever system ultimately results from the ruling is “as restrictive as possible.”
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    "restrictive as possible?" At least it won't be "infringed," though.
    oh no..... of course not Please tell me the NRA, GOA and any true Americans left will fight tooth and nail and never rest until not just DC but all 50 states recognize and understand the Second Amendment MUST mean Constitutional Carry. Unless the place is a private business there can be no place one is not permitted to carry including public buildings. There is enough precedent left to understand any system implemented will be unconstitutional, illegal and there is no reason or justification to pretend is has any force at all. it doesnt. Regardless of what some corrupt judge, police officer or government body says. They are subject to the Constitution and we must hold them to it.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

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    Nobody really prefers baby steps as a means to their goals - giant steps are more effective. Nevertheless, the shorter strides do provided firm ground under foot and collectively add up to progress.

    General Electric's old slogan comes to mind = Progress Is Our Most Important Product.
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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Judge Scullin, in his ruling, said self defense is a reason to allow carry. How would DC proceed with any kind of may issue G&S scheme like MD in light of that?

    I guess they can do it and then we go back to litigating for a few more years.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Judge Scullin, in his ruling, said self defense is a reason to allow carry. How would DC proceed with any kind of may issue G&S scheme like MD in light of that?

    I guess they can do it and then we go back to litigating for a few more years.
    Unfortuneately, that will likely be the case.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    If DC continues to delay, obfuscate the issues and evade the ruling, it just makes the case for National reciprocity stronger IMO.

    What better stage than right in front of Congress?

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    And it will take 10 years for DC's LE community to get the news...according to them.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    "as restrictive as possible" jives so well with "shall not be infringed" don't you think?
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Nobody really prefers baby steps as a means to their goals - giant steps are more effective. Nevertheless, the shorter strides do provided firm ground under foot and collectively add up to progress...
    Yes, but with people who have no intention of doing so, how does one move from acceptance of a licensing system to pushing for recognition of a RIGHT? (in or out of court)
    Last edited by BB62; 08-01-2014 at 09:19 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Yes, but with people who have no intention of doing so, how does one move from acceptance of a licensing system to pushing for recognition of a RIGHT? (in or out of court)
    Become active by joining and supporting local organizations like VCDL and national orgs such as SAF, GOA, JPFO.

    Add to that to lobby your legislature and educate the public.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Yes, but with people who have no intention of doing so, how does one move from acceptance of a licensing system to pushing for recognition of a RIGHT? (in or out of court)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Become active by joining and supporting local organizations like VCDL and national orgs such as SAF, GOA, JPFO.

    Add to that to lobby your legislature and educate the public.
    Already done, but that wasn't my point - with people like Gura who seems bent on accepting licensing a RIGHT, how do we persuade such "luminaries" that they need to fight for more?

    Gura and others are sending the wrong message, IMHO, that 1) carrying guns ought to be done solely for self-defense, and 2) licensing is acceptable. Those are the things to change - and since according to many the NRA accepts licensing a right (or speaks out of both sides of its mouth about OC), what can we really do?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Hit the freaking lottery and spend all that money on hiring Gura to reject a 90 stay. He had constitutional carry in DC handed to him on a silver platter it seems...though, I am no legal beagle.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Hmmm. How do you explain his apparent acceptance of turning a RIGHT into a privilege? (in Woollard, Moore v Madigan, and this case)

    I've been in contact with another person who has known him over the years who said "He’s always been a little weak on the licensing thing. I remember that from DC v Heller", so you'll pardon me if I don't swoon at your interpretation of how "pro gun" he is.
    Gura is a realist, not an idealist. He is very good for gun owners because he is a realist with a great legal strategy.

    Regulation, though I detest it, is a reality. Heller says so, MacDonald says so.

    Gura fights for the basics, then after he wins fundamental right status he fights for an appropriate standard of review. What that means is he fights very hard for an equivalency between the 1st and 2nd A.

    Anti-s have been somewhat successful in using the 2A 2 step - getting courts to identify rights as less than the core, which receives strict scrutiny - the highest level- then declaring that the next level - intermediate is met by almost any law.

    This case goes a long way to killing the 2A 2 step. Unequivocal identification of a fundamental right to carry outside of the home is a huge victory if Gura can hang on to it in the Circuit Court appeal.

    Read any of Gura's briefs. They are not timid or retreating in nature. They are very well reasoned. He builds arguments upon previous favorable rulings and condemns outright unfavorable rulings. He provides almost irresistible arguments for all except the most totalitarian statists in black robes. He is the one we want carrying the argument in the DC Circuit and in the Supreme Court.

    Gura will fight DC's motion to stay, have no doubt. If you want to see how it will probably go read Woolard, and expect a similar District Court decision in this case.

    Know that the big battle will be in the circuit court. (If DC were smart they would not appeal, but their politicians are dumber than a box of rocks - I believe they will appeal.) Appellate court work is where Gura is a wizard. He uses all of the bill of rights to defend gun rights. He plays the long game, and he plays to win.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Hmmm. How do you explain his apparent acceptance of turning a RIGHT into a privilege? (in Woollard, Moore v Madigan, and this case)

    I've been in contact with another person who has known him over the years who said "He’s always been a little weak on the licensing thing. I remember that from DC v Heller", so you'll pardon me if I don't swoon at your interpretation of how "pro gun" he is.
    It would appear that Gura is pro privilege, and pro money, not pro second amendment. The second amendment is not licensing!

    But then a ruling that would bring constitutional carry closer to nationwide would mean his lawyer skills find a new venue. It would also reduce the ranks of many pro privilege organizations. It would not however harm pro liberty organizations because there is plenty of liberty issues besides the right to bear arms. Getting RKBA returned in the manner it was written for would help considerably with the other rights being encroached upon.
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    He accepted the 90 day stay because if he did not, DC would simply have appealed to the next higher level and probably got something worse.

    In other words, if he had done what so many ignoramuses have urged, and refused to accept the 90 day stay, we'd have a 180 day stay granted by a court that will be only too happy to continue extending it, instead of a 90 day stay issued by a judge that probably won't take any weaseling from DC on day 89.

    Tactics, folks, tactics!

    But no, any sort of tactical accommodation that improves our situation is, to so many here, an utterly unacceptable compromise. DC will almost certainly have to issue permits as a result of this. As opposed to completely banning any sort of carry whatsoever.

    The lack of any sort of sense whatsoever, again displayed by the usual suspects, is appalling.

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